Sage Adjustments for 7.0.1 / 7.0.5

[ty_taurus]

All those changes sound incredibly over tunned.

I'll do the math for you. Here is a breakdown of how much potency Sage is capable of delivering in a span of 2 minutes:

Dosis III - 360 potency / Spammable
E. Dosis III - 75 potency (750 potency total) / per 30 seconds
Phlegma III - 600 potency / 40 second cooldown
Psyche - 600 potency / 60 second cooldown
____

Total Possible (optimal) casts over 2 minutes:

Dosis III - 41 casts = 14760 potency
E. Dosis III - 4 casts = 3000 potency
Phlegma III - 3 casts = 1800 potency
Psyche - 2 casts (OGCD) = 1200 potency

Total = 48 casts / 20760 potency

Now, using the above suggestions and applying all of them, we need to make a few adjustments for balance. So let's assume that Eukrasian Dosis III's DOT is increased to 95 to compensate for the shorter duration and Eukrasian Dyskrasia's DOT is decreased slightly to 35 potency per tic to make it closer to Dosis III's potency. With this in mind, I'm going to show you how Sage's potency breakdown looks when we change Dosis III to 280 potency and Toxikon II to 420 potency. Naturally, Pneuma would also change to 280 in this example.

Dosis III - 280 potency / Spammable
E. Dosis III - 95 potency (475 potency total) / per 15 seconds
E. Dyskrasia - 25 potency (350 potency total) / per 30 seconds
Phlegma III - 600 potency / 20 second cooldown
Psyche - 600 potency / 30 second cooldown
Toxikon II - 420 potency / Requires Addersting procs
____

Total Possible (optimal) casts over 2 minutes:

Dosis III - 24 casts = 6720 potency
E. Dosis III - 8 casts = 3800 potency
E. Dyskrasia - 4 casts = 1400 potency
Phlegma III - 6 casts = 3600 potency
Psyche - 4 casts (OGCD) = 2400 potency
Toxikon II - 6* casts = 2520 potency *Average based on proc chance

Total = 48 casts / 20440 potency

Notice how Sage's total possible potency actually is lower than current Sage's by a total of 320 potency. This would be to compensate not only for the chance to generate more than 6 Adderstings per 2 minutes (which keep in mind you might also generate less), but also the added potential of buff windows. Do you want to know how far you missed the ballpark with your guestimate of Dosis at 100 potency to compensate for these changes? Your Sage balancing would result in Sage doing up to around 2400 potency with Dosis casts, and 900 for Toxikon casts, resulting in a total possible potency per 2 minutes of 14500, which is less damage than what Astrologian does per 2 minutes without buffs.

To be frank, I do not care at all whether or not you like or don't like this play style. Because I don't think every healer should play this way. You can have a healer that plays the way you like, just let me have 1 healer that plays the way I like. Since Sage was given the identity of a DPS healer, then let it actually play into a more offensive play style.

[Xenoviastar]

At first glace it looks to be fair on paper, However..
The fact that you would be casting Dosis almost 50% less of the time makes you extremely mobile which is already complimented by Icarus, giving Sage an even more unfair advantage compared to the other healers.
This is not taking into account for boss situations either, you could potentially not cast dosis at all if there's a need for shields and they proc Toxikon as well.

Regarding my Guestimate, it was made to be a stupid amount as it sounds as if you don't want to cast it at all. Plus I don't see the proc chance for Toxikon, nor did you mention a reduce damage to Dots.
If both dot would proc Toxikon it would be insane damage even in AOE situation that even rivals DPS.
(although I am not entirely against healers doing more AOE damage, the other healers would need a dramatic change to AOE potential as well.)

[ForsakenRoe]

At first glace it looks to be fair on paper, However..
The fact that you would be casting Dosis almost 50% less of the time makes you extremely mobile which is already complimented by Icarus, giving Sage an even more unfair advantage compared to the other healers.
This is not taking into account for boss situations either, you could potentially not cast dosis at all if there's a need for shields and they proc Toxikon as well.

Regarding my Guestimate, it was made to be a stupid amount as it sounds as if you don't want to cast it at all. Plus I don't see the proc chance for Toxikon, nor did you mention a reduce damage to Dots.
If both dot would proc Toxikon it would be insane damage even in AOE situation that even rivals DPS.
(although I am not entirely against healers doing more AOE damage, the other healers would need a dramatic change to AOE potential as well.)

If the 'average procs per 2mins' for Toxikon were given as 6, then the proc chance should be 15%. The issue with AOE DOT proccing can be solved by having the same system that MNK enjoys for its AOE, where only one Chakra is granted when you Crit using an AOE skill, regardless of how many enemies you actually Crit. So, it'd be 'If E.Dosis is up on ANY enemy, roll once for Toxikon proc chance. If E.Dyskrasia is up on ANY enemy, roll once for Toxikon proc chance.', for a total of up to two procs per DOT tick

Your mobility concerns would ideally be addressed by SE implementing some changes to other healers, which would increase their mobility too. For example, if they did an idea I had for WHM, which is to add Water (later upgrading to Banish) as a 15s CD instantcast spell, and shortening Dia to 12s, that'd be 5 Dia, 4 Banish, 3 Lily heals, and Misery, per 1min, all allowing full mobility.

[ty_taurus]

At first glace it looks to be fair on paper, However..
The fact that you would be casting Dosis almost 50% less of the time makes you extremely mobile which is already complimented by Icarus, giving Sage an even more unfair advantage compared to the other healers.
This is not taking into account for boss situations either, you could potentially not cast dosis at all if there's a need for shields and they proc Toxikon as well.

Regarding my Guestimate, it was made to be a stupid amount as it sounds as if you don't want to cast it at all. Plus I don't see the proc chance for Toxikon, nor did you mention a reduce damage to Dots.
If both dot would proc Toxikon it would be insane damage even in AOE situation that even rivals DPS.
(although I am not entirely against healers doing more AOE damage, the other healers would need a dramatic change to AOE potential as well.)

I said "Adjust potency as needed" in my original post to clarify that there should be some numerical adjustments to ensure a healthy balance between each tool. Generally speaking, potency balance really is something that should be left to the designers to determine. One thing they have access to which I lack is the ability to prototype changes. Let's say we find that all that extra mobility does make Sage a lot easier to optimize cast times with and that, as a result, does mean that Sage has too much power. Then it's a simple solution of properly adjusting the numbers, which is something expected of a game designer. And we can also address that balance in the other actions as well, not just in Dosis' potency. Maybe Phlegma goes back to being 510 potency, for example instead of 600. The point of my post is to establish a play style that does not exist in FFXIV that I want to have, and I want it to be balanced with the other healers. I don't want it to be OP, I just want to have faster, more active DPS gameplay while I heal, and have to balance those choices with my healing. Mobility isn't nothing, but it isn't everything either. You can absolutely have a more balanced relationship with the other healers even with this set. It's just a numbers game.

At the end of the day, I'm tired of being treated like I'm not allowed to enjoy that play style when it's something that used to exist in Scholar in the past, which is something I feel when I am constantly met with resistance to having even just 1 healer that plays this way.

One thing to note though is that only casting barriers to generate Toxikon usage is still a DPS loss. Because it takes 2 casts to both apply a barrier and cast Toxikon II. Two casts of Dosis III currently is 720 potency, whereas a barrier and Toxikon is only 360. With the changes made above, it's still a loss, but at least partially refunds some of the damage lost when you generate Addersting through barriers, which also makes Sage more forgiving in that sense to players who rely on GCD heals more often as clutch healing.

[ty_taurus]

If the 'average procs per 2mins' for Toxikon were given as 6, then the proc chance should be 15%. The issue with AOE DOT proccing can be solved by having the same system that MNK enjoys for its AOE, where only one Chakra is granted when you Crit using an AOE skill, regardless of how many enemies you actually Crit. So, it'd be 'If E.Dosis is up on ANY enemy, roll once for Toxikon proc chance. If E.Dyskrasia is up on ANY enemy, roll once for Toxikon proc chance.', for a total of up to two procs per DOT tick

Your mobility concerns would ideally be addressed by SE implementing some changes to other healers, which would increase their mobility too. For example, if they did an idea I had for WHM, which is to add Water (later upgrading to Banish) as a 15s CD instantcast spell, and shortening Dia to 12s, that'd be 5 Dia, 4 Banish, 3 Lily heals, and Misery, per 1min, all allowing full mobility.

The proc chance is 50% not 15%. In two minutes, if you cast your single target DOT 8 times and your AOE DOT 4 times, that's 12 casts. 50% of that is 6 casts. 15% would give you 1.8 Addersting per 2 minutes on average. The idea was the proc was on cast, not on hit. Like how Dancer's proc works. You don't have a 50% chance to generate a flourish buff for every enemy you hit with Windmill/Bladeshower, just a 50% chance when you use the action.

[Xenoviastar]

One thing to note though is that only casting barriers to generate Toxikon usage is still a DPS loss. Because it takes 2 casts to both apply a barrier and cast Toxikon II. Two casts of Dosis III currently is 720 potency, whereas a barrier and Toxikon is only 360. With the changes made above, it's still a loss, but at least partially refunds some of the damage lost when you generate Addersting through barriers, which also makes Sage more forgiving in that sense to players who rely on GCD heals more often as clutch healing.

To clarify, casting Eukrasia has a 1-second cooldown.

Mobility plays a significant role in balance. Currently Sage has the most mobility, as other healers must use cooldowns like Presence of Mind, Lightspeed, or Ruin II, which results in a DPS loss btw
Sage has an amazing kit already. Scholar has the worst kit, and there's no denying that. While you're seeking more advantages, I'm simply asking for the basics.

This is just my opinion, but I dislike the changes you suggest and am against Sage getting Scholar's DoT. I support SE reducing the total number of DoTs overall.

[Ramiee]

I just don't get this strange resistance to letting Sage explore the identity space it was given. Yoshi P specifically called out Shadowbringers healer feedback as something that influenced Sage's design. Why are we being so apprehensive with it? Ambition saved this game. Lack of ambition is killing it for a lot of people.

Well it's seems to be mostly on the JP end of things I believe. I think they don't like the idea of sage even being a damage healer in all honesty, I really do wish that CBU3 would just make at least one healer with western players in mind though having 2 would be more ideal.

[ty_taurus]

To clarify, casting Eukrasia has a 1-second cooldown.

Mobility plays a significant role in balance. Currently Sage has the most mobility, as other healers must use cooldowns like Presence of Mind, Lightspeed, or Ruin II, which results in a DPS loss btw
Sage has an amazing kit already. Scholar has the worst kit, and there's no denying that. While you're seeking more advantages, I'm simply asking for the basics.

This is just my opinion, but I dislike the changes you suggest and am against Sage getting Scholar's DoT. I support SE reducing the total number of DoTs overall.

I am not seeking more advantages. I'm seeking the basics for the job to fill the identity it was given: being offensive and DPS oriented. I get that mobility can be a factor of balance as well. Whatever numerical balances must be made to compensate for that, I'm okay with as long as the job is fun and isn't stuck spamming Dosis till my fingers bleed. And to be fair, I'm not specifically looking for DOTs on Sage. The suggestions I made are specifically to make Sage enjoyable with the tools at our disposal now without demanding new assets from the design team. I would be perfectly fine with Sage having no DOTs at all even as long as the gameplay is fun, fast, and dynamic. And to be fair, the other healers should also get some adjustments as well, which could better include more mobility. Adjustments like reducing PoM's cooldown to 60 seconds and making Glare IV triggerable outside of PoM windows would also increase white mage's mobility.

Listen, all I ask is that I get one healer that I enjoy. Please just let me have one.

[Xenoviastar]

I don't want to go around in circles or alienate the healer community, so I will conclude.
I agree that healers need more than just spamming a single button, and Scholars feel this the most.

I won't talk about Scholar since this thread is about Sage.
The only input I have with Sage, is with button bloat being the problem. my suggestion is to make Psyche a follow-up to Phlegma instead.
I will admit I also dislike the Toxikon Procs, I think it would be better if they were triggered by using Addersgall or Phlegma. Not RNG
This change could also address the issue of Sages overwriting Scholars' shields, which is part of why I'm not fond of Sages (nothing personal).

Good luck with your quest.

[Anatha]

I don't want to go around in circles or alienate the healer community, so I will conclude.
I agree that healers need more than just spamming a single button, and Scholars feel this the most.

I won't talk about Scholar since this thread is about Sage.
The only input I have with Sage, is with button bloat being the problem. my suggestion is to make Psyche a follow-up to Phlegma instead.
I will admit I also dislike the Toxikon Procs, I think it would be better if they were triggered by using Addersgall or Phlegma. Not RNG
This change could also address the issue of Sages overwriting Scholars' shields, which is part of why I'm not fond of Sages (nothing personal).

Good luck with your quest.

The healer community isn't participating in this discussion, you shouldn't worry about it.