Finished the MSQ - Feels bad, pushed to do evil [Spoilers inside]

[duckorz]

I mean -- is your argument that it could have been executed and written better? Because that's totally valid.

But if the argument is that it's the same as what's going on with Ultima Thule and the Cafe at the End of the Universe, you're just conveniently ignoring facts and what *actually* happened in the MSQ in favor of what you *wanted* to happen.

Please don't make me defend the writing lol. I did not like it, and I think it could have been better. But I'm also not going to let my distaste for the MSQ blur the facts for the sake of a better argument.

My argument is mostly that what the characters state their beliefs on this matter ethically, that unnatural life that doesnt have a soul doesn't have a right to exist (regardless of whether or not its taking up aether - this is frequently not evoked when characters are arguing for their nonexistence), is completely antithetical to the point made in Omega, Shadowbringers, Endwalker and the EW Beast Tribes. This should not be the reason being invoked constantly as to why we should shut them off:



We are not meant to die. That's an unfortunate and inevitable consequence of living. Venat's point wasn't that suffering was good and necessary, and that we were meant to die at the end of our lives, it's that suffering and death were unavoidable, and that life was worth it anyway, and that we should always pursue living one more day if we can.

So, yeah, I did want something different to happen in the MSQ, because what actually happened made literally no sense. It was not only nonsensical and broke my suspension of disbelief, it also violated one of the core ideals of the games writing prior - that all life is valuable and worth understanding and preserving, no matter its nature or the circumstances behind its existence. That we cannot just look down on other forms of apparent life as "lesser" or "not really truly alive." I'm not just going to accept the order of events and the way the characters dealt with them because thats what the writer wrote. I think what the writer wrote was bad.

Living memory is not a bad idea for a zone. It should have just been entirely focused on the idea of unsustainable consumption. It's so obviously designed to be an idyllic freezing of a bygone age that cannot be preserved without imposing suffering on others to preserve it. It's clearly meant to be criticizing nostalgic conservatism, right. Instead, the writer somehow missed the obvious point of what the last zone should have actually been critiquing, with its adjacency to S9's consumerist soul-sucking dystopia, and its overly-nostalgia-reliant structure and visuals and premise, and decided to make a wrongheaded point about the necessary inevitability of death and the ontological worthlessness of unnatural life.

[Boblawblah]

My argument is mostly that what the characters state their beliefs on this matter ethically, that unnatural life that doesnt have a soul doesn't have a right to exist (regardless of whether or not its taking up aether - this is frequently not evoked when characters are arguing for their nonexistence), is completely antithetical to the point made in Omega, Shadowbringers, Endwalker and the EW Beast Tribes. This should not be the reason being invoked constantly as to why we should shut them off:



We are not meant to die. That's an unfortunate and inevitable consequence of living. Venat's point wasn't that suffering was good and necessary, and that we were meant to die at the end of our lives, it's that suffering and death were unavoidable, and that life was worth it anyway, and that we should always pursue living one more day if we can.

So, yeah, I did want something different to happen in the MSQ, because what actually happened made literally no sense. It was not only nonsensical and broke my suspension of disbelief, it also violated one of the core ideals of the games writing prior. I'm not just going to accept the order of events and the way the characters dealt with them because thats what the writer wrote. I think what the writer wrote was bad.

Living memory is not a bad idea for a zone. It should have just been entirely focused on the idea of unsustainable consumption. Instead, the writer somehow missed the obvious point of what the last zone should have actually been critiquing, with its adjacency to S9's consumerist soul-sucking dystopia, and its overly-nostalgia-reliant structure and visuals and premise, and decided to make a wrongheaded point about the necessary inevitability of death and the ontological worthlessness of unnatural life.

I think you've probably put more thought into this than the writers have. I wouldn't dwell on it so much if I were you, you'll just frustrate yourself.

[duckorz]

I think you've probably put more thought into this than the writers have. I wouldn't dwell on it so much if I were you, you'll just frustrate yourself.

It's too late for that, this has been my life for the past 5 days. Please save me.

[Boblawblah]

It's too late for that, this has been my life for the past 5 days. Please save me.

Let it go, it's going to be worse before it gets better. In fact, I wouldn't ever expect Shadowbringers level of story again.

[Lersayil]

It's too late for that, this has been my life for the past 5 days. Please save me.

Can relate... Ra'la come and take us into your gentle golden embrace!

[Embran]

My argument is mostly that what the characters state their beliefs on this matter ethically, that unnatural life that doesnt have a soul doesn't have a right to exist (regardless of whether or not its taking up aether - this is frequently not evoked when characters are arguing for their nonexistence), is completely antithetical to the point made in Omega, Shadowbringers, Endwalker and the EW Beast Tribes. This should not be the reason being invoked constantly as to why we should shut them off:



We are not meant to die. That's an unfortunate and inevitable consequence of living. Venat's point wasn't that suffering was good and necessary, and that we were meant to die at the end of our lives, it's that suffering and death were unavoidable, and that life was worth it anyway, and that we should always pursue living one more day if we can.

So, yeah, I did want something different to happen in the MSQ, because what actually happened made literally no sense. It was not only nonsensical and broke my suspension of disbelief, it also violated one of the core ideals of the games writing prior.

Living memory is not a bad idea for a zone. It should have just been entirely focused on the idea of unsustainable consumption. Instead, the writer somehow missed the obvious point of what the last zone should have actually been critiquing, with its adjacency to S9's consumerist soul-sucking dystopia, and its overly-nostalgia-reliant structure and visuals and premise, and decided to make a wrongheaded point about the necessary inevitability of death and the ontological worthlessness of unnatural life.

I really don't know how this flies in opposition to previous expansions or what Ishikawa wrote in to Endwalker, though. I mean -- the tagline for the game is "thou must live, die and know."

When civilizations across the cosmos tried to live forever, Meteion found that they fell in to apathy, sorrow, and longed for death. The folly of the Ancients was that they clinged to everything and refused to let go.

I think people are conflating the ideas of "should artificial life be allowed to exist" with "should something be allowed to exist forever" -- in this, I think that the story wasn't handled as gracefully as it could, probably because it tried to answer the first question through the lens of artificial life while not exploring the story's actually morals and merrits well enough in the short time we were given with the themes of Living Memory.

But this checks out with the rest of XIV's stories and themes, for me. We aren't meant to live forever. But I think you -- and some others, it seems? -- are conflating an eternal existence with an artificial one. The points made by Omega and the Cafe at the End of the Universe and Alpha is that the circumstances of your creation don't matter, but you still have to come to and end, eventually.

[duckorz]

When civilizations across the cosmos tried to live forever, Meteion found that they fell in to apathy, sorrow, and longed for death.

This is what the beast tribe quests in ultima thule I posted screenshots of addressed directly, though? That was not the end of their stories. This was Meteion, the hyper-depressed suicidal villain, and notably biased source, talking about the problem that she directly caused. We deal with the fallout of that in those quests and end up saying that, actually, life is good, and that longing for death is bad, and that even though these beings in Ultima Thule are "just" the memories of bygone civilizations, they're still just as "alive" as we are in this new existence and should go on living as they are.

[Embran]

This is what the beast tribe quests in ultima thule I posted screenshots of addressed directly, though? That was not the end of their stories. This was Meteion, the hyper-depressed suicidal villain, and notably biased source, talking about the problem that she directly caused. We deal with the fallout of that in those quests and end up saying that, actually, life is good, and that longing for death is bad.

Longing for death is bad.

But so is clinging to life.

The whole point is that when it's time to go, it's time to go. Ultima Thule doesn't make an effort to say "hey, living forever is cool and valid, actually," it's saying that there IS meaning out there, and life IS worth living, and you CAN find that meaning for yourself.

The *problems* Meteion found were real. The conclusion she arrived at was not.

[Kaecilius]

I think people are conflating the ideas of "should artificial life be allowed to exist" with "should something be allowed to exist forever" -- in this, I think that the story wasn't handled as gracefully as it could, probably because it tried to answer the first question through the lens of artificial life while not exploring the story's actually morals and merrits well enough in the short time we were given with the themes of Living Memory.

I think that this is the crux of the issue for a lot of us. There is a concept worthy of discussion here, but everything gets jammed into the last zone and mostly ignored and handwaved away to make room to the recurrent theme of letting go of the past without looking at the implications of our actions.

[Galvuu]

I really don't know how this flies in opposition to previous expansions or what Ishikawa wrote in to Endwalker, though. I mean -- the tagline for the game is "thou must live, die and know."

When civilizations across the cosmos tried to live forever, Meteion found that they fell in to apathy, sorrow, and longed for death. The folly of the Ancients was that they clinged to everything and refused to let go.
(...)

But this checks out with the rest of XIV's stories and themes, for me. We aren't meant to live forever. But I think you -- and some others, it seems? -- are conflating an eternal existence with an artificial one. The points made by Omega and the Cafe at the End of the Universe and Alpha is that the circumstances of your creation don't matter, but you still have to come to and end, eventually.

Isn't it heavily implied that Meteion herself, who was already succumbing to existential dread and despair, caused those very civilizations to descend to nihilistic madness due to her influence through Dynamis?
Like, some of those worlds existed in a state of immortal post-scarcity and enlightenment for an undisclosed amount of time... and suddenly went into a suicidal spiral once she showed up to pose her questions.
Surely an intelligent race that's defeated their own mortality and existed for centuries, if not longer, has pondered the meaning of life and their place in the cosmos a few times, no?
I thought the point that was being made here is that the Meteia and their song were now a universal threat that literally invited these nihilistic thoughts and suicidal urges on any civilization, no matter how enlightened and advanced- hence the threat of the Final Days.
(Just commenting on this particular point, I thought this was a popular interpretation of that whole ordeal)