Do healers actually want a more complex damage rotation?

[GrimGale]

I already answered this in my previous response, saying "X should do this because Y does this" is an argument you can make but it is an argument I disagree with, nothing says these two have to work the same way. Again, they are different roles and I'm not making any arguments of what tanks should or shouldn't have.

But we're talking about the principle right? We're trying to understand why the double standard regarding the fact that Tanks are allowed to have a damage dealing rotation and healers are not. If classes should have kits exclusively designed around their roles, i.e. pure tanking, pure healing, pure dps, then why do tanks deserve to have DPS rotation while Healers are not allowed that?

In any case, it ultimately comes down, for both of us to have a less repetitive filler time in healer gameplay. You'd rather fill it up with more healing, which I believe is fine though it comes with its own drove of complications and is probably the hardest solution to implement (though I am not opposed to it personally.)
Where as I accept that filler DPS is there to stay, I just wish for a bit more complexity in it. I do want to heal. I enjoy the balancing act of using healing abilities and "other" abilities to complement the party, that being damage, buffs or debuffs.

In the end we both agree that the current gameplay is not acceptable, we just disagree in the direction it should move towards.

[flowerkatie]

But we're talking about the principle right? We're trying to understand why the double standard regarding the fact that Tanks are allowed to have a damage dealing rotation and healers are not. If classes should have kits exclusively designed around their roles, i.e. pure tanking, pure healing, pure dps, then why do tanks deserve to have DPS rotation while Healers are not allowed that?

In any case, it ultimately comes down, for both of us to have a less repetitive filler time in healer gameplay. You'd rather fill it up with more healing, which I believe is fine though it comes with its own drove of complications and is probably the hardest solution to implement (though I am not opposed to it personally.)
Where as I accept that filler DPS is there to stay, I just wish for a bit more complexity in it. I do want to heal. I enjoy the balancing act of using healing abilities and "other" abilities to complement the party, that being damage, buffs or debuffs.

In the end we both agree that the current gameplay is not acceptable, we just disagree in the direction it should move towards.

Yeah, perhaps I was too heavy in my arguments in parts but there is one thing I completely agree on and its that, at the end of the day we're all just healers who want an improvement to the job as a whole and we have different outlooks on how to do it. I'm not even sure why I feel so strongly against the idea of what you've said but I had always wanted something more.

So I agree with you, I hope something will change and in the end - even if it isn't exactly what I want, if its an improvement I'll be happy.

[HyoMinPark]

What you're essentially saying is "We agree with you but developers said impossible so we want this band-aid fix instead", which is an argument that has been made twice already so I'm already fully aware of it. If the nonsensical argument of "play this specific content" is enough for you to concede and begin advocating for a non-ideal fix to the issue then your entire point is moot. Because, they're obviously not going to make DPS more complex and give another silly argument all the same to our suggestions of doing DPS.

So if both suggestions are going to be ignored then you rather stop discussion on it completely or advocate for the fix you want, which is what I'm doing. Verses advocating for a arguably worse solution that is also never going to happen. Cause, by the look of it - you're still being ignored.

I don’t think you quite understand just how long healers asked to be given more reasons to actually heal versus dealing damage for 80% or more of the time they’re in a given piece of content. Healers have been advocating for this for 6+ years at this point. And instead of getting any decent response, we’ve been told to “to go Ultimate” (which still doesn’t require all that much more healing uptime, as someone who has cleared an Ultimate on a healer) or are just ignored completely. Our kits continue to be pruned of any interesting damage capability, and overly bloated by MORE healing tools we don’t need because content hits like a wet noodle more often than not.

I don’t agree with any “go play a damage dealer instead” argument. I’ve tried playing other DPS jobs. The one I loved the most was lobotomized going into Shadowbringers, all nuance and flavor removed from it so that the new job in its role could shine instead. I’m not INTERESTED in playing any other jobs—I want to play the jobs I enjoy the most, which just happen to be healers. I simply don’t want to be bored while doing it. The only time I’m not bored as a healer is if I get a 24-man where people are playing as if it’s Day 1, Zero hour and dying to literally everything and I have to go into emergency triage mode. But why does a single role’s enjoyment have to hinge upon “is my party competent or a bunch of clowns”?

And we aren’t asking for complex rotations like DPS jobs have. Healers have literally asked for something akin to the kits they had in Stormblood, which consisted, for the most part, of an extra DoT or two that they could refresh and manage; and that helped break up the Glare/Broil/Malefic spam. No idea if you were playing back then, but that was probably the happiest the healers were despite issues with WHM’s Lily system and arguments about AST’s card system when it came to Balance fishing.

My ideal change would be increased damage coming in from bosses. But since the developers have made it extremely clear that they refuse to do that (everything has to be catered to the lowest common denominator—which are the healers who simply cannot heal their way out of a paper bag and do not attempt to get any better at their role), then I would like to advocate for more abilities to break up my Glare spam monotony. And I have long since said I’d be happy if they brought Aero III back and gave me a second DoT to manage. It’s not like I’m asking for a rotation like the tanks or DPS. I’m not even asking for them to return old Cleric Stance even though I LOVED Cleric Stance dancing. 1 more DoT on a different timer. At least now I have another button to press and another item to manage in between using just oGCDs to keep people alive…

[Tunda]

I believe all healers should have different kits but with the same capabilities (sheild, heal, regen, mitigation) but done differently.

let me give you example:

I would give a Metrix to have the design philosophy,

Is healer Hard casting or Soft casting?
Is healer playstyle is DPS or Support Buffs or Dots?
Is healer Reactive or Proactive?

if count the possibilities that would be 2 x 3 x 2= 12 possible healers that could fit with different kit that have same capability.

[Sebazy]

I couldn't give two hoots about principles. Semantics don't equate to good job design.

What I care about is the fact that I routinely press 1 singular button 100+ times in a duty. That's A) A problem and B) A mind numbingly boring gameplay experience in the long term

[Lazariah]

I'm not gonna lie, healing bores me now. I used to love it but every time an expansion would come out that makes healers "easier" got me more and more bored. Now it feels braindead in the vast majority of content. It's not fun. And that is my problem.

I'm not a game designer by any means and I wont pretend like I know the answer. And any suggestions I may have have already been said really. But I think, in the end, they need to make healers fun and engaging. And I don't think SE can do it. I really don't. They're so afraid of making healers complex in any way they've put fun to the side. The fact that none of the devs play healer and find it a chore speaks volumes. They need to sit down and come up with something they would find fun. Plain and simple.

[thereal_aliceanders]

Dear Healers,
Welcome to what it's like to main bard. Get over it, move on.

[Shurrikhan]

What you're essentially saying is "We agree with you but developers said impossible so we want this band-aid fix instead", which is an argument that has been made twice already so I'm already fully aware of it. If the nonsensical argument of "play this specific content" is enough for you to concede and begin advocating for a non-ideal fix to the issue then your entire point is moot. Because, they're obviously not going to make DPS more complex and give another silly argument all the same to our suggestions of doing DPS.

So if both suggestions are going to be ignored then you rather stop discussion on it completely or advocate for the fix you want, which is what I'm doing. Verses advocating for a arguably worse solution that is also never going to happen. Cause, by the look of it - you're still being ignored.

Read: "If Optimal Choice X is literally impossible, then falling back on the nearest actual possibility means your need is without weight."

There is... so much wrong with this.

First, the argument to "play this specific content" (that being Ultimate) comes from Yoshida, not players, let alone those from these forums. Those here would rather be as engaged in all content on healers as they are on DPS or at least tanks.

Second, "play[ing] this specific content" doesn't even solve the issue, as even healing Ultimates... is quickly rendered boring from an actual healing perspective. Even there, a good healer will spend more than 80% of their time just dealing damage, possibly even spending nigh 80% of casts of the same damn button (e.g., Broil).

Verses advocating for a arguably worse solution that is also never going to happen.

Adding a bit of engagement to "downtime" (i.e., when no healing is required) is still far superior to leaving things as dull as they are now, since the vast, vast majority of our time... is "downtime" even in the hardest content in the game.

You're making it sound like any suggestion more flexible than "Make all content demand more, and more skillful, healing than even Ultimate" is somehow hypocritical. This is the "You're not a real healer" (if you're just a career healer bored out of your minds and willing to even take scraps at this point) argument taken to 11, and it was already ridiculous from the start.

[GrimGale]

Dear Healers,
Welcome to what it's like to main bard. Get over it, move on.

Uh excuse you we were in the 1 button dps repeat first, sweetie.

[flowerkatie]

This is the "You're not a real healer" (if you're just a career healer bored out of your minds and willing to even take scraps at this point) argument taken to 11, and it was already ridiculous from the start.

Fabricating an argument that I did not make and then calling it ridiculous is ... something.

That isn't my argument, if you read the thread and responses you'll see multiple times I completely understand why people want more engaging damage rotations and that I myself simply want healers to be more engaging. I've even said previously "So I agree with you, I hope something will change and in the end - even if it isn't exactly what I want, if its an improvement I'll be happy. ".

Stop feeling so called out, I simply want a better fix than "more damage options" for healer classes and don't agree with doubling down on leaving healing in a bad state and focusing on the "filler" instead, regardless of if its been ignored in the past.