Do healers actually want a more complex damage rotation?

[Ramiee]

Oh yeah, so for those who don't want dps complexity, what are yall's takes on the Stormblood kits, whether you've actually got to experience them or not? (I haven't)

I've heard multiple times in this forum that it was the best middle ground between healing and dpsing, and I've kinda assumed most people who want dps complexity are looking for something at a similar level as it.

Better than what we have now at least.

Scholar from my memory was pretty bad in dungeons damage wise (though mitigation was great.) Also due to old jank the dots could be a bit messy.
For the other two I didn't play them much but I think Astro hasn't changed that much, they just had a second dot.
White mage I think had a couple of strong attacks on CD you would use which may or may not of been oGCD. I'm not sure if this went away in stormblood but as a DPS you would keep your lower level DPS spells, you'd have stone 1 and stone 2 for example and the weaker dots. They had niche uses.

Really I think what most people feel mixed on is cleric stance. It's really the healers equivalent of Dark Arts, people either loved it or hated it.

[Azurarok]

Better than what we have now at least.

Scholar from my memory was pretty bad in dungeons damage wise (though mitigation was great.) Also due to old jank the dots could be a bit messy.
For the other two I didn't play them much but I think Astro hasn't changed that much, they just had a second dot.
White mage I think had a couple of strong attacks on CD you would use which may or may not of been oGCD. I'm not sure if this went away in stormblood but as a DPS you would keep your lower level DPS spells, you'd have stone 1 and stone 2 for example and the weaker dots. They had niche uses.

Really I think what most people feel mixed on is cleric stance. It's really the healers equivalent of Dark Arts, people either loved it or hated it.

Pretty sure cleric stance was turned into just a damage buff in SB, while the stance dancing was a thing up through HW. The spell upgrades being separate also was a pre-SB thing. I think the only thing WHM had outside its current kit in SB was AeroIII.

[Ramiee]

Pretty sure cleric stance was turned into just a damage buff in SB, while the stance dancing was a thing up through HW. The spell upgrades being separate also was a pre-SB thing. I think the only thing WHM had outside its current kit in SB was AeroIII.

yeah i dont remember stormblood that well but even then Cleric stance was controversal in SB, even if it was just a damage buff. I didn't heal much in SB so most of my memories come from HW. So WHM lost all of those strong attacks after HW lol?
Seriously SB already simplified damage dealing in healers so much that they really didnt need to do ShB role rework lmao.

[KisaiTenshi]

yeah i dont remember stormblood that well but even then Cleric stance was controversal in SB, even if it was just a damage buff. I didn't heal much in SB so most of my memories come from HW. So WHM lost all of those strong attacks after HW lol?
Seriously SB already simplified damage dealing in healers so much that they really didnt need to do ShB role rework lmao.

Cleric Stance in ARR, literately swapped MND and INT. So you would go from doing 100% healing to 5% healing. There was a recast delay, so the entire argument against cleric stance was that people doing it are not only contributing nothing to DPS, but being in cleric stance was proof you were not healing.

Tanks in ARR had to maintain enmity. If you cast Medica 2, you ALWAYS ripped the enmity away from the tank. You were punished for overhealing. If a tank tied to stance dance in ARR, you, the healer would keep ending up dead unless you were to stop casting entirely before they did it.

Suffice it to say, "stance dance" was not an intended mechanic in the first place, and the game is better off without it, and anyone saying otherwise, was not playing Tank enough in ARR PUG's to see it.

It is honestly easier to say that mechanically speaking, the game was not designed for you to stance dance, and doing so was a compromise so that healers could do the non-dungeon content, and so tanks could off-tank in two-tank content. If the developers had know players would be so toxic and abusive about DPS as healer or tank, they would have never had the feature carried over from 1.20:

ncreases potency of attack spells by 20% and reduces potency of healing spells by 20%. Effect fades upon reuse.

ARR (Recast Time: 30 seconds):

Swaps current INT and MND attribute ratings, while increasing potency of attack spells by 10% and reducing potency of healing spells by 20%. Effect ends upon reuse.

Stormblood (recast time 90 seconds):

Increases potency of attack magic by 5%. Duration: 15s. Recast: 90s.

Like, quite literately the "swaps int and mnd" part of the ARR version is why it was such a problem, because as gear creeped up, the gap between INT and MND grew. So in level 15 content, that healing loss might not be as noticed, but by the time you got to the level 50 content if you stopped healing for the 35 seconds needed to turn it on and off, you usually wiped the party.

The content was not balanced for healers to DPS in the dungeon content, and has never been so. The overworld and the solo story content assumes a DPS role, that is why we had it, because otherwise, doing any quest in the overworld took 10's of minutes rather than 10's of seconds. I did the entire 1-50 MSQ without using cleric stance, imagine now if fighting a single group of 3 mobs took as long as fighting Zenos. That is what it was like. Yes, you could use cleric stance in the overworld quests, but then you'd usually be retrying them a lot because the damage output, even in cleric stance wasn't high enough to kill a monster before it would kill you, so you would instead not use it, and basically alternate between cure on yourself and stone on the mob. if you made the mistake of using cleric stance, you couldn't heal yourself worth beans. You had to use Repose when there was more than one monster. That is how the game wanted you to do it. The developers didn't design the MSQ in a way that a healer could get through it without grinding levequests for far better gear than needed for the quest.

In a way it's just amazing that the developers thought it was a good idea at all.

[Azurarok]

In a way it's just amazing that the developers thought it was a good idea at all.

The old cleric stance existed because all offensive spells used INT while healing used MND up through HW, but they both now scale off MND so that version just straight up won't work in the current game.

Lost Seraph Strike in Bozja however grants a version of Cleric Stance which increases damage dealt by 60% and reduces healing by 60% for 15s. Obviously it only works because Bozja is designed for non-standard comps and I wouldn't ask for it in normal content, but it was a blast to use (especially when Thin Air was on a timer).

At any rate I don't think there's many folks who actually want the old cleric stance back, and that's part of why the Stormblood kits are usually brought up.

[Vladmiere]

There was some truth to that but for scholars it was definately possible to stay in cleric stance for long periods of time. My pet managed to keep most tanks topped out in ARR on dungeon spams. Even the two big ones at the time Palance/Ampa Keep it was faster for my friends group to sustain pulls as my faerie was able to keep the group going most of the time. Also cleric stance for white mage to time holy+stun was viable as well. Cleric stance in Bahamut Coils Part 1 and two was viable at times as well. One healer heals started to become normal after you was half geared in Coils of Bahamut gear and crystal tower and your relic. Being an offensive scholar was the bomb. Scholar was so much fun back then. I was a scholar and not a superior form of a White mage with my new Seraphim aoe regen aura and uber instant cast 25% Galv spam. Aoe out my dots in bane shadowflare and weaving spells and even hitting things with my book was a thing and it was glorious unabashed fun. I do not know why you think cleric stance was a trolling mechanic. It was glorious and I would love to have the wild west of ARR back. The game was not designed for allot of things back then. The cross class skills from the non crystal jobs how stats interacted with our skills ETC. The game was still figuring out what it was meant to do and I miss and will continue to miss it. Call it nostalgia trip if you wish since I have actual fun memories of back then. I do not remember much of the game since Heavensward.

Cleric Stance in ARR, literately swapped MND and INT. So you would go from doing 100% healing to 5% healing. There was a recast delay, so the entire argument against cleric stance was that people doing it are not only contributing nothing to DPS, but being in cleric stance was proof you were not healing.

Tanks in ARR had to maintain enmity. If you cast Medica 2, you ALWAYS ripped the enmity away from the tank. You were punished for overhealing. If a tank tied to stance dance in ARR, you, the healer would keep ending up dead unless you were to stop casting entirely before they did it.

Suffice it to say, "stance dance" was not an intended mechanic in the first place, and the game is better off without it, and anyone saying otherwise, was not playing Tank enough in ARR PUG's to see it.

It is honestly easier to say that mechanically speaking, the game was not designed for you to stance dance, and doing so was a compromise so that healers could do the non-dungeon content, and so tanks could off-tank in two-tank content. If the developers had know players would be so toxic and abusive about DPS as healer or tank, they would have never had the feature carried over from 1.20:

ARR (Recast Time: 30 seconds):

Stormblood (recast time 90 seconds):


Like, quite literately the "swaps int and mnd" part of the ARR version is why it was such a problem, because as gear creeped up, the gap between INT and MND grew. So in level 15 content, that healing loss might not be as noticed, but by the time you got to the level 50 content if you stopped healing for the 35 seconds needed to turn it on and off, you usually wiped the party.

The content was not balanced for healers to DPS in the dungeon content, and has never been so. The overworld and the solo story content assumes a DPS role, that is why we had it, because otherwise, doing any quest in the overworld took 10's of minutes rather than 10's of seconds. I did the entire 1-50 MSQ without using cleric stance, imagine now if fighting a single group of 3 mobs took as long as fighting Zenos. That is what it was like. Yes, you could use cleric stance in the overworld quests, but then you'd usually be retrying them a lot because the damage output, even in cleric stance wasn't high enough to kill a monster before it would kill you, so you would instead not use it, and basically alternate between cure on yourself and stone on the mob. if you made the mistake of using cleric stance, you couldn't heal yourself worth beans. You had to use Repose when there was more than one monster. That is how the game wanted you to do it. The developers didn't design the MSQ in a way that a healer could get through it without grinding levequests for far better gear than needed for the quest.

In a way it's just amazing that the developers thought it was a good idea at all.