[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

[Kimahri]

and using your numbers there are many more builds with the system in place now due to not being limited to 2 classes at a time even with less classes.

You're completely disregarding something. Being able to select any abilities currently from any class is what is making this class system less unique and being even more limited than FFXI. In the end it'll turn into you leveling a class for a certain ability. You can say what you think about how I presume too much, but remember I've been in FFXI since the day it started. I think I know what I'm talking about. Also when you all said that if I didn't have the right subjob that you would be shunned by the community? Think down the future. "Haha! What a noob! He doesn't have [Insert Skill] on his [Insert Class] yet! Let's kick him."

Please don't tell me how to restrict myself so you can enjoy a system by only yourself. I'd like to think of others since this is a MMO. If I didn't want to play with others, I'd go buy a single-player game.

inability to handle freedom for some people is part of the reason this game is dying. don't blame freedom for the inability to handle it. even with a job/sub job system this game is still very much broken and to blame this as the reason the game is in bad shape is quite nearsighted.

No. Inability is not the reason we're leaving the game. We're leaving the game because this current class system is boring and repetative. There is no motivation behind leveling a certain class other than to obtain additional skills to use for other classes. I want to level Marauder because it is a Marauder. Not because I can use it's abilities on Gladiator and be 'Supreme' over only just a Marauder. This system is not engaging for me, and it's the same for a damn good number of others as well. Just to state a fact, but 85.1% of everyone around the world said that they would be in favor of SE drastically changing the very foundational laws that govern Eorzea.

Nobody is here to wreck a game, but with the way you guys complain you do nothing to further other people's desires. It's just like Auto-Attack. The one's opposed against it think it'll be less engaging when there really isn't any legitimate reason behind that. People were engaged during XI's auto-attack phase. A very big reasoning behind implementing this is that it gives us time to chat to others, look up information on the fly, change over to YouTube so we can listen to some music, etc, etc. It's why they eliminated TBA in the old FF RPG because all it was would be button mashing once you engaged in combat.

Edit: Sorry. I just logged onto IGN.com and seen this at a glance and let me tell you. This review of Dynasty Warriors 7 reflects a lot of how I feel about FFXIV.

"Dynasty Warriors 7 is one of those games that really only appeals to a certain niche of gamers. Dynasty Warriors fans are going to find a whole lot to like with Dynasty Warriors 7, including an expansive set of options that will keep players busy for a very long time. But for everybody else, playing Dynasty Warriors 7 will be a chore. The gameplay is repetitive and boring, the aesthetics are bland, and the story -- while interesting and chock-full of characters -- can be hard to follow and bogged-down by melodramatic delivery.

In other words, those who are already into the Dynasty Warriors franchise will love Dynasty Warriors 7. Everybody else should stay away."

[darkstarpoet1]

You're completely disregarding something. Being able to select any abilities currently from any class is what is making this class system less unique and being even more limited than FFXI. In the end it'll turn into you leveling a class for a certain ability. You can say what you think about how I presume too much, but remember I've been in FFXI since the day it started. I think I know what I'm talking about. Also when you all said that if I didn't have the right subjob that you would be shunned by the community? Think down the future. "Haha! What a noob! He doesn't have [Insert Skill] on his [Insert Class] yet! Let's kick him."

Please don't tell me how to restrict myself so you can enjoy a system by only yourself. I'd like to think of others since this is a MMO. If I didn't want to play with others, I'd go buy a single-player game.



No. Inability is not the reason we're leaving the game. We're leaving the game because this current class system is boring and repetative. There is no motivation behind leveling a certain class other than to obtain additional skills to use for other classes. I want to level Marauder because it is a Marauder. Not because I can use it's abilities on Gladiator and be 'Supreme' over only just a Marauder. This system is not engaging for me, and it's the same for a damn good number of others as well. Just to state a fact, but 85.1% of everyone around the world said that they would be in favor of SE drastically changing the very foundational laws that govern Eorzea.

Nobody is here to wreck a game, but with the way you guys complain you do nothing to further other people's desires. It's just like Auto-Attack. The one's opposed against it think it'll be less engaging when there really isn't any legitimate reason behind that. People were engaged during XI's auto-attack phase. A very big reasoning behind implementing this is that it gives us time to chat to others, look up information on the fly, change over to YouTube so we can listen to some music, etc, etc. It's why they eliminated TBA in the old FF RPG because all it was would be button mashing once you engaged in combat.

Edit: Sorry. I just logged onto IGN.com and seen this at a glance and let me tell you. This review of Dynasty Warriors 7 reflects a lot of how I feel about FFXIV.

no, sorry i was not saying that some people do not like the system in general. i am saying that if someone doesn't like the doing multiple classes then don't. there are people that feel the same as you do. on the other side there are people that enjoy the freedom and that is the people i play with. how you play your game does not affect me in any way so i do not mind how others play it. that is the inability to handle that i was referring to.

all i was saying is that people keep saying THIS is the reason the game is in poor shape. even if se did exactly this system and used the job/subjob system this game would not be fixed. there are many problems with this game other than this. i enjoy the system and i play with people that feel the same so what is the problem with if someone wants a job/subjob and play with that group that feels that way and does things that way? if you only want to play a marauder play as a marauder. that is part of the freedom to choose how to play the game the way you want.

[kukurumei]

no, sorry i was not saying that some people do not like the system in general. i am saying that if someone doesn't like the doing multiple classes then don't. there are people that feel the same as you do. on the other side there are people that enjoy the freedom and that is the people i play with. how you play your game does not affect me in any way so i do not mind how others play it. that is the inability to handle that i was referring to.

all i was saying is that people keep saying THIS is the reason the game is in poor shape. even if se did exactly this system and used the job/subjob system this game would not be fixed. there are many problems with this game other than this. i enjoy the system and i play with people that feel the same so what is the problem with if someone wants a job/subjob and play with that group that feels that way and does things that way? if you only want to play a marauder play as a marauder. that is part of the freedom to choose how to play the game the way you want.

IF you want to be stuck at lvl 20, feel free to do so, it's freedom. If you want to fight a boss naked to add more challenge, feel free to do so. If you want to jump off a bridge feel free to do so.

Do you realized that's the most stupidest argument to put to a theory. There's no such thing as feel free not to win.

Right behind, "don't copy me".

[darkstarpoet1]

IF you want to be stuck at lvl 20, feel free to do so, it's freedom. If you want to fight a boss naked to add more challenge, feel free to do so. If you want to jump off a bridge feel free to do so.

Do you realized that's the most stupidest argument to put to a theory. There's no such thing as feel free not to win.

Right behind, "don't copy me".

yep, i choose not to, but does not mean you are not more than welcome to. i don't see how this is a stupid argument. if you are not willing to level multiple classes then you do not have to. i gave my opinion and if you do not agree with it then give a rational response to show where i am wrong. i can sit and have a rational conversation with people that disagree with me, just like i have with others, but i will not resort to 3rd grade arguments such as these.

[Kimahri]

yep, i choose not to, but does not mean you are not more than welcome to. i don't see how this is a stupid argument. if you are not willing to level multiple classes then you do not have to. i gave my opinion and if you do not agree with it then give a rational response to show where i am wrong. i can sit and have a rational conversation with people that disagree with me, just like i have with others, but i will not resort to 3rd grade arguments such as these.

Um..........Yeah, how about you scroll up to my post that you quoted? How about YOU give me a rational response to show where I am wrong. As regards to your other posts that sort of states, "I like this game, but you don't." please scroll up and examine IGN's review on Dynasty Warriors 7. Until then, stay in your delusional realm.

Now to Sivant.

I do not think there is a problem with teh current skill/job system. Rather by taking esoteric's idea, you can expand on it and get a lot of ADDITIONAL features, without loosing any flexability. For instance, once you implement a certain job by combining the correct balance of skills, you unlock certain features, or maybe even start climbing a different tree of skills

For example:

lets say theres a class, thief
to become a thief, you must equip 20 action points of pug, and 10 of gld and once you do, you are a rank 1 thief. Perhaps you could do this from either direction, so you could be a blade wielding thief, or a punching thief. Perhaps tehre could be an initial pug guild pt cost to unlock it.

Now, as a thief rank 1, all new sp goes into thf, you can not rank up the source jobs without dropping the ratio (balancing this system also creates inherent limits, like you can not have a gld heavy pug without slipping into thf) as you gain ranks, you of course gain more points for attaching skills, and so you can use the thf specific ones this way, and of course you can go back to basic class and use some of the thf skills you've earned thus far.

you cuold always implement extended class specific weapons, so a dagger that is fragile/weak/lacking in special power unless you become thf after equiping it

it doesn't prevent you from adding new base classes, but it makes it very tricky (and not really practical untill leve cap increase) to make a 3rd tier of classes (so for instance, thf+samurai = ninja) which isn't really critical, sam+pug could be ninja too, and mighty fine at it given the list of pug skills...

also you could have another type of job, lets call it sub-job, made by specializing another one. So blm could be conj without healing skills equiped, and whm could be conj with no damaging skills equiped. Perhaps this capacity could be unlocked at the guild (buy blm subclass with guild points and when conditions are met, start ranking blm and gaining those spells, and perhaps a bonus, such as stronger bonus from your element attribute to relevant spells as long as you are blm)

this has the advantage of leaving a potentially lightly filled action bar to start eh subjob, whereas, as described above, extended jobs would have a relatively filled (unless you lower reqs) bar.

First of all let me say thank you for actually posting up some actual theories instead of just pulling some half-a**ed strike back like a lot of people are doing.

I do not think that this, however, would be a viable solution. From what I gather, a combination of two classes results in a said 'new' class? It would seem rather limiting considering there are only seven basic classes of war and magic. I'm not counting DoL & DoH because they have no abilities to bring to the table and are hence 'crafting' classes so would not soak up well in this theory.

The only way they'd have at adding basic classes would be through expansion sets. If they were to add a traditional three basic classes, that would end up being a potential 21 new classes. I like the sound of being more free to level a class, but holy christ that's a lot even for SE. It's best to leave that system in it's respective place. It'll be best to keep the basic classes like they did in XI and just add additional classes at expansion time.

The problem with this system isn't it's lack of classes. Remember that XI started with only six jobs....This is starting with seven. The problem is the access to cross mostly any ability to any class disregarding rank. You unlock Stygian Spikes off Thaumaturge at level 16 and can only access it at Thaumaturge's level 16, but you can then slap it on a level 1 Conjurer? That's the problem. It will only provide motivation to leveling a class to only support another in a sense of developing a "Ultimate" class.

Abilities need to be accessed at optimal levels for all classes, and a lot need to be class specific to give an influence to it's character of being that said class. Then also some of those abilities that are crossed over can not have the same effect on other classes. If you want a couple examples from FFXI, I'd be glad to.

I. Utsusemi: Ni used as any other job other than Ninja resulted in 3 shadows relative to a Ninja who would assume 4 shadows.

II. Sneak Attack would add a critical strike to your weaponskill, but the DEX modifier was less potent than a Thief's.

[Arcell]

The problem with this system isn't it's lack of classes. Remember that XI started with only six jobs....This is starting with seven. The problem is the access to cross mostly any ability to any class disregarding rank. You unlock Stygian Spikes off Thaumaturge at level 16 and can only access it at Thaumaturge's level 16, but you can then slap it on a level 1 Conjurer? That's the problem. It will only provide motivation to leveling a class to only support another in a sense of developing a "Ultimate" class.

Abilities need to be accessed at optimal levels for all classes, and a lot need to be class specific to give an influence to it's character of being that said class. Then also some of those abilities that are crossed over can not have the same effect on other classes. If you want a couple examples from FFXI, I'd be glad to.

I. Utsusemi: Ni used as any other job other than Ninja resulted in 3 shadows relative to a Ninja who would assume 4 shadows.

II. Sneak Attack would add a critical strike to your weaponskill, but the DEX modifier was less potent than a Thief's.

Surprisingly, I actually agree with a lot of this. Allowing abilities to only be used from other classes at the ability's optimal rank makes perfect sense and is a completely reasonable restriction. Abilities having modified effects on other classes is also reasonable. This actually already happens on Marauder by extension of the fact that Steadfast, and it's effect on abilities, is only accessible while on Marauder.

[Kimahri]

Surprisingly, I actually agree with a lot of this. Allowing abilities to only be used from other classes at the ability's optimal rank makes perfect sense and is a completely reasonable restriction. Abilities having modified effects on other classes is also reasonable. This actually already happens on Marauder by extension of the fact that Steadfast, and it's effect on abilities, is only accessible while on Marauder.

Ah. See, Arcell? Knew we'd agree on some things once we started to discuss these differences.

Reika's post:

This goes in line with the equipment issue.

"should equipment be used at a rank requirement, or keep optimal rank at which it is most effective?"

Just because you can use stygian spikes on a r1 conjorer, doesnt mean it gives you as much MP back per hit as it would if your conjurer were r16 and you were using Transcendence along with it.

a spell Sacrifice II has reduced healing if used before R20, and further reduced healing if used without Transcendence.

Well. I'm so sorry, Reika. I obviously met my match......Oh wait........You forgot that at R1 your Mind, Intelligence, and Piety cap are at 34 while at R16 it's at 64......No s**t it's going to be less effective. Good job thinking that one through.

There are only a few things that are a step back from FFXI, content being the obvious one.

Please read my previous posts regarding content. Everything regarding this game is considered content. This part of the content sucks and needs refined. Thank you. Now on to DarkStarPoet.

you will never be able to convince people of what you say. the reason? they don't want to believe in facts. they want to believe that a r50 can go to r1 and equip all skills to that class because it supports their argument.

i seen it is hard to handle 3 bars of skills with a controller? i use a controller and handle mine quite easily.

i seen 4-5 skills is enough? a gladiator uses that many in just buffs and pulling hate.

the truth is this game went like all other final fantasy games and went with a completely new system for the next game. the armory system is a new system and yes it can use some tweaks, but i agree completely with reika in that it is going in the right direction. this game was advertised as for the hardcore as well as casual player. if you start removing the stuff that allows the casuals to play you force them to leave. it does need more stuff for the hardcore players, but not at the expense of the other kinds of players that are still playing.

First of all....Let me just go ahead and state the obvious......I don't really like you.....Or Reika. If you'd pay attention to the argument in the first place, you'll notice others and I say that you can equip A R50 ability to an R1 class. We didn't say ALL of their abilities. Don't twist our arguments to benefit your post. Truth is we said you can equip a hell of a lot of abilities to each rank. Crossing over abilities from one class to the other should result in 1.5x to 2x the AP needed at least. Maybe even 3x when using magic from a DoM on a DoW job besides Gladiator.

As for the gamepad mumbo-jumbo. Just because you can get along with it just fine, doesn't mean it isn't a chore to others.

When you talk about how SE always went another route in terms of a completely new system, you're wrong. They added new elements into the new system and kept some others from the previous model. It didn't just wipe everything clean and start from scratch. You always need a reference point to start off from. Without Mozart, Bact, and Beethoven you wouldn't have as great of music as today. It's just simple relativity. This current system can by all means stay, but it needs some serious 'tweaking' to balance the game so it'll go back to being a true MMO experience. I bought it to play with others seeking challenges, not to play by myself all day. I'd play Assassin's Creed then.

Talking about Casual & Hardcore gamers? Listen. Cleaning house on this current rat infested class system isn't going to lose the casual gamers. That's what they introduced the fatigue system and allowed you to solo by giving you levequests. It's certain things like these that let those with only an hour to up to three hours be able to still play and level up their classes at the same time. In no way shape or form will people leave because it became too difficult for them because they wanted the best abilities from every class. You obviously have no clue what you're even talking about. Just because you might have an R50 class, like Reika, doesn't mean your judgment is supreme rule over all.

I've clearly shown through my posts over topics that I shine light on points of view that others tend to agree with me who opposed it at first. You two, however, have done nothing but b***h and complain to anyone who opposed your idea's and then insulted their intelligence with a post depicting nothing but to ramble for two sentences each. This is why I don't like either of you, and to be honest I'm quite sure there are plenty of others who agree with me.

P.S. Good job, Mr_Gyactus. Another person I'd give credit to for at least furthering this thread's debatable issues.

Edit: I'm so sorry, I forgot that I posted my response to lack of content on the Auto-Attack thread, so here it is just so you can view it and not call me a liar!

What people seem to be forgetting is that certainly this is to a degree a lack of content. Classes being unique? Lack of content. Introduction of the aggro icon? Lack of content. Problems with little party play in the game. Lack of content. You say people leave the game due to lack of content, well it's one in the same. There's not enough good "content" to keep me hooked on this game. I'd much rather be off playing my Xbox with friends.