[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

[Kimahri]

Holy Jesus. Enough with these excuses of cookie-cutter bull****. In the end this system will fall along the same lines and it will turn into less "viable combinations" as FFXI.

Abriael let's go ahead and do something right now. Let's do some number crunching. Let's say that there were three different job/subjob combinations for every class.....This isn't true, since almost every job had well over that many viable combinations. There are twenty(20) jobs currently available in FFXI. Simple math results in 60 possible optimal builds, or "Cookie-Cutter" combinations that you could come up with. Don't know about you, but that hardly seems very limiting. You act as if every job had to sub ninja or else be scorned.

P.S. Not to mention that your character had different sets of gear for different strategies. Different merits into different jobs. And also overall different players to play their own character. For Samurai I had two sets of gear; TP and WS. For Black Mage I had three; Elemental, Enfeebling, Dark Magic. Again. That's a lot of viable combinations for your so called "Cookie-cutter" jargon.

[darkstarpoet1]

Holy Jesus. Enough with these excuses of cookie-cutter bull****. In the end this system will fall along the same lines and it will turn into less "viable combinations" as FFXI.

Abriael let's go ahead and do something right now. Let's do some number crunching. Let's say that there were three different job/subjob combinations for every class.....This isn't true, since almost every job had well over that many viable combinations. There are twenty(20) jobs currently available in FFXI. Simple math results in 60 possible optimal builds, or "Cookie-Cutter" combinations that you could come up with. Don't know about you, but that hardly seems very limiting. You act as if every job had to sub ninja or else be scorned.

P.S. Not to mention that your character had different sets of gear for different strategies. Different merits into different jobs. And also overall different players to play their own character. For Samurai I had two sets of gear; TP and WS. For Black Mage I had three; Elemental, Enfeebling, Dark Magic. Again. That's a lot of viable combinations for your so called "Cookie-cutter" jargon.

and using your numbers there are many more builds with the system in place now due to not being limited to 2 classes at a time even with less classes.

[Kimahri]

and using your numbers there are many more builds with the system in place now due to not being limited to 2 classes at a time even with less classes.

You're completely disregarding something. Being able to select any abilities currently from any class is what is making this class system less unique and being even more limited than FFXI. In the end it'll turn into you leveling a class for a certain ability. You can say what you think about how I presume too much, but remember I've been in FFXI since the day it started. I think I know what I'm talking about. Also when you all said that if I didn't have the right subjob that you would be shunned by the community? Think down the future. "Haha! What a noob! He doesn't have [Insert Skill] on his [Insert Class] yet! Let's kick him."

Please don't tell me how to restrict myself so you can enjoy a system by only yourself. I'd like to think of others since this is a MMO. If I didn't want to play with others, I'd go buy a single-player game.

inability to handle freedom for some people is part of the reason this game is dying. don't blame freedom for the inability to handle it. even with a job/sub job system this game is still very much broken and to blame this as the reason the game is in bad shape is quite nearsighted.

No. Inability is not the reason we're leaving the game. We're leaving the game because this current class system is boring and repetative. There is no motivation behind leveling a certain class other than to obtain additional skills to use for other classes. I want to level Marauder because it is a Marauder. Not because I can use it's abilities on Gladiator and be 'Supreme' over only just a Marauder. This system is not engaging for me, and it's the same for a damn good number of others as well. Just to state a fact, but 85.1% of everyone around the world said that they would be in favor of SE drastically changing the very foundational laws that govern Eorzea.

Nobody is here to wreck a game, but with the way you guys complain you do nothing to further other people's desires. It's just like Auto-Attack. The one's opposed against it think it'll be less engaging when there really isn't any legitimate reason behind that. People were engaged during XI's auto-attack phase. A very big reasoning behind implementing this is that it gives us time to chat to others, look up information on the fly, change over to YouTube so we can listen to some music, etc, etc. It's why they eliminated TBA in the old FF RPG because all it was would be button mashing once you engaged in combat.

Edit: Sorry. I just logged onto IGN.com and seen this at a glance and let me tell you. This review of Dynasty Warriors 7 reflects a lot of how I feel about FFXIV.

"Dynasty Warriors 7 is one of those games that really only appeals to a certain niche of gamers. Dynasty Warriors fans are going to find a whole lot to like with Dynasty Warriors 7, including an expansive set of options that will keep players busy for a very long time. But for everybody else, playing Dynasty Warriors 7 will be a chore. The gameplay is repetitive and boring, the aesthetics are bland, and the story -- while interesting and chock-full of characters -- can be hard to follow and bogged-down by melodramatic delivery.

In other words, those who are already into the Dynasty Warriors franchise will love Dynasty Warriors 7. Everybody else should stay away."

[darkstarpoet1]

You're completely disregarding something. Being able to select any abilities currently from any class is what is making this class system less unique and being even more limited than FFXI. In the end it'll turn into you leveling a class for a certain ability. You can say what you think about how I presume too much, but remember I've been in FFXI since the day it started. I think I know what I'm talking about. Also when you all said that if I didn't have the right subjob that you would be shunned by the community? Think down the future. "Haha! What a noob! He doesn't have [Insert Skill] on his [Insert Class] yet! Let's kick him."

Please don't tell me how to restrict myself so you can enjoy a system by only yourself. I'd like to think of others since this is a MMO. If I didn't want to play with others, I'd go buy a single-player game.



No. Inability is not the reason we're leaving the game. We're leaving the game because this current class system is boring and repetative. There is no motivation behind leveling a certain class other than to obtain additional skills to use for other classes. I want to level Marauder because it is a Marauder. Not because I can use it's abilities on Gladiator and be 'Supreme' over only just a Marauder. This system is not engaging for me, and it's the same for a damn good number of others as well. Just to state a fact, but 85.1% of everyone around the world said that they would be in favor of SE drastically changing the very foundational laws that govern Eorzea.

Nobody is here to wreck a game, but with the way you guys complain you do nothing to further other people's desires. It's just like Auto-Attack. The one's opposed against it think it'll be less engaging when there really isn't any legitimate reason behind that. People were engaged during XI's auto-attack phase. A very big reasoning behind implementing this is that it gives us time to chat to others, look up information on the fly, change over to YouTube so we can listen to some music, etc, etc. It's why they eliminated TBA in the old FF RPG because all it was would be button mashing once you engaged in combat.

Edit: Sorry. I just logged onto IGN.com and seen this at a glance and let me tell you. This review of Dynasty Warriors 7 reflects a lot of how I feel about FFXIV.

no, sorry i was not saying that some people do not like the system in general. i am saying that if someone doesn't like the doing multiple classes then don't. there are people that feel the same as you do. on the other side there are people that enjoy the freedom and that is the people i play with. how you play your game does not affect me in any way so i do not mind how others play it. that is the inability to handle that i was referring to.

all i was saying is that people keep saying THIS is the reason the game is in poor shape. even if se did exactly this system and used the job/subjob system this game would not be fixed. there are many problems with this game other than this. i enjoy the system and i play with people that feel the same so what is the problem with if someone wants a job/subjob and play with that group that feels that way and does things that way? if you only want to play a marauder play as a marauder. that is part of the freedom to choose how to play the game the way you want.

[kukurumei]

no, sorry i was not saying that some people do not like the system in general. i am saying that if someone doesn't like the doing multiple classes then don't. there are people that feel the same as you do. on the other side there are people that enjoy the freedom and that is the people i play with. how you play your game does not affect me in any way so i do not mind how others play it. that is the inability to handle that i was referring to.

all i was saying is that people keep saying THIS is the reason the game is in poor shape. even if se did exactly this system and used the job/subjob system this game would not be fixed. there are many problems with this game other than this. i enjoy the system and i play with people that feel the same so what is the problem with if someone wants a job/subjob and play with that group that feels that way and does things that way? if you only want to play a marauder play as a marauder. that is part of the freedom to choose how to play the game the way you want.

IF you want to be stuck at lvl 20, feel free to do so, it's freedom. If you want to fight a boss naked to add more challenge, feel free to do so. If you want to jump off a bridge feel free to do so.

Do you realized that's the most stupidest argument to put to a theory. There's no such thing as feel free not to win.

Right behind, "don't copy me".

[darkstarpoet1]

IF you want to be stuck at lvl 20, feel free to do so, it's freedom. If you want to fight a boss naked to add more challenge, feel free to do so. If you want to jump off a bridge feel free to do so.

Do you realized that's the most stupidest argument to put to a theory. There's no such thing as feel free not to win.

Right behind, "don't copy me".

yep, i choose not to, but does not mean you are not more than welcome to. i don't see how this is a stupid argument. if you are not willing to level multiple classes then you do not have to. i gave my opinion and if you do not agree with it then give a rational response to show where i am wrong. i can sit and have a rational conversation with people that disagree with me, just like i have with others, but i will not resort to 3rd grade arguments such as these.

[Kimahri]

yep, i choose not to, but does not mean you are not more than welcome to. i don't see how this is a stupid argument. if you are not willing to level multiple classes then you do not have to. i gave my opinion and if you do not agree with it then give a rational response to show where i am wrong. i can sit and have a rational conversation with people that disagree with me, just like i have with others, but i will not resort to 3rd grade arguments such as these.

Um..........Yeah, how about you scroll up to my post that you quoted? How about YOU give me a rational response to show where I am wrong. As regards to your other posts that sort of states, "I like this game, but you don't." please scroll up and examine IGN's review on Dynasty Warriors 7. Until then, stay in your delusional realm.

Now to Sivant.

I do not think there is a problem with teh current skill/job system. Rather by taking esoteric's idea, you can expand on it and get a lot of ADDITIONAL features, without loosing any flexability. For instance, once you implement a certain job by combining the correct balance of skills, you unlock certain features, or maybe even start climbing a different tree of skills

For example:

lets say theres a class, thief
to become a thief, you must equip 20 action points of pug, and 10 of gld and once you do, you are a rank 1 thief. Perhaps you could do this from either direction, so you could be a blade wielding thief, or a punching thief. Perhaps tehre could be an initial pug guild pt cost to unlock it.

Now, as a thief rank 1, all new sp goes into thf, you can not rank up the source jobs without dropping the ratio (balancing this system also creates inherent limits, like you can not have a gld heavy pug without slipping into thf) as you gain ranks, you of course gain more points for attaching skills, and so you can use the thf specific ones this way, and of course you can go back to basic class and use some of the thf skills you've earned thus far.

you cuold always implement extended class specific weapons, so a dagger that is fragile/weak/lacking in special power unless you become thf after equiping it

it doesn't prevent you from adding new base classes, but it makes it very tricky (and not really practical untill leve cap increase) to make a 3rd tier of classes (so for instance, thf+samurai = ninja) which isn't really critical, sam+pug could be ninja too, and mighty fine at it given the list of pug skills...

also you could have another type of job, lets call it sub-job, made by specializing another one. So blm could be conj without healing skills equiped, and whm could be conj with no damaging skills equiped. Perhaps this capacity could be unlocked at the guild (buy blm subclass with guild points and when conditions are met, start ranking blm and gaining those spells, and perhaps a bonus, such as stronger bonus from your element attribute to relevant spells as long as you are blm)

this has the advantage of leaving a potentially lightly filled action bar to start eh subjob, whereas, as described above, extended jobs would have a relatively filled (unless you lower reqs) bar.

First of all let me say thank you for actually posting up some actual theories instead of just pulling some half-a**ed strike back like a lot of people are doing.

I do not think that this, however, would be a viable solution. From what I gather, a combination of two classes results in a said 'new' class? It would seem rather limiting considering there are only seven basic classes of war and magic. I'm not counting DoL & DoH because they have no abilities to bring to the table and are hence 'crafting' classes so would not soak up well in this theory.

The only way they'd have at adding basic classes would be through expansion sets. If they were to add a traditional three basic classes, that would end up being a potential 21 new classes. I like the sound of being more free to level a class, but holy christ that's a lot even for SE. It's best to leave that system in it's respective place. It'll be best to keep the basic classes like they did in XI and just add additional classes at expansion time.

The problem with this system isn't it's lack of classes. Remember that XI started with only six jobs....This is starting with seven. The problem is the access to cross mostly any ability to any class disregarding rank. You unlock Stygian Spikes off Thaumaturge at level 16 and can only access it at Thaumaturge's level 16, but you can then slap it on a level 1 Conjurer? That's the problem. It will only provide motivation to leveling a class to only support another in a sense of developing a "Ultimate" class.

Abilities need to be accessed at optimal levels for all classes, and a lot need to be class specific to give an influence to it's character of being that said class. Then also some of those abilities that are crossed over can not have the same effect on other classes. If you want a couple examples from FFXI, I'd be glad to.

I. Utsusemi: Ni used as any other job other than Ninja resulted in 3 shadows relative to a Ninja who would assume 4 shadows.

II. Sneak Attack would add a critical strike to your weaponskill, but the DEX modifier was less potent than a Thief's.