Dawntrail's mediatour dungeon was already cleared without healers.

[Bun_Vivant]

I was doing Lunar Subterrain a while ago and DC'd during Boss Two, me playing as SCH. I returned to the party about to engage Boss Three, and I'm pretty sure they could have cleared without me.

I usually don't have much of a strong opinion about the whole Job discussion, but this one just makes me sad. I'm not angry, I'm just sad. I'm not gonna stop playing, but... egh

Healers are not unique in that regard. I've cleared plenty of DF dungeons down a DC'd tank or DPS; I generaly prefer not to kick someone for DC'ing if they've been doing their role right and we can keep going without them. I remember one DF where the tank came back just in the nick of time, grabbed agro, and we rocked it from there. The group had decided they had been a good tank who deserved a chance to reconnect, and if the three of us wiped in the mean time, it wouldn't be a big deal.

You need the right mix to pull this off: having a nice sturdy melee DPS to psuedo-tank helps. It's not something I'd be optimistic doing with a SGE and two BLMs; although I'd be willing to try.

But the point is, in a lot of the content, no one person in any role is actually required.
Which makes pugging with noobs and goobs a whole lot less annoying.

[KisaiTenshi]

I would strongly fall into the green DPS,

There are no green dps mains.
It's just part of your core gameplay, moreso than healing. The game just doesn't support any other playstyle.

By your own description you're not healer mains. That's fine, but you ignored the point I was making. The game was ORIGINALLY designed to have the Tank-Healer-DPS trinity, and it ORIGINALLY worked that way. But a vocal part of the "Green DPS" people complained that healers didn't get to DPS enough, and the Healer mains complained that Cleric stance was THE obstacle to doing so. So they removed it. No more KO'ing the party because a green DPS wouldn't turn off cleric stance.

But ARR fights were not reworked to consider the healer could DPS. No fight requires the healer to be contributing DPS. If your two DPS has done 800000 damage in a minute, and you are doing zero healing, the most you could do is 200000. So not only do you contribute less than 1/4th of the damage, but doing your job subtracts from that. All you not doing any DPS does is allows the one minute fight to run 15 seconds longer. Having to run back and do the fight again takes longer. Back in ARR the healer would be contributing even less because of CD of cleric stance.

That is the core argument about wanting to be healer main. Your goal is not personal maximum DPS, your goal is maximum uptime OF the DPS and Tank. But fights often don't really make you use your healing kit, and fight designs don't have you using Esuna to remove debuffs because most debuffs can't be cleansed, and those that do, drop off in a few seconds, rather than being minutes. If the fight is giving you room to DPS, then the fight lacks enough heal urgency.

[Supersnow845]

By your own description you're not healer mains. That's fine, but you ignored the point I was making. The game was ORIGINALLY designed to have the Tank-Healer-DPS trinity, and it ORIGINALLY worked that way. But a vocal part of the "Green DPS" people complained that healers didn't get to DPS enough, and the Healer mains complained that Cleric stance was THE obstacle to doing so. So they removed it. No more KO'ing the party because a green DPS wouldn't turn off cleric stance.

But ARR fights were not reworked to consider the healer could DPS. No fight requires the healer to be contributing DPS. If your two DPS has done 800000 damage in a minute, and you are doing zero healing, the most you could do is 200000. So not only do you contribute less than 1/4th of the damage, but doing your job subtracts from that. All you not doing any DPS does is allows the one minute fight to run 15 seconds longer. Having to run back and do the fight again takes longer. Back in ARR the healer would be contributing even less because of CD of cleric stance.

That is the core argument about wanting to be healer main. Your goal is not personal maximum DPS, your goal is maximum uptime OF the DPS and Tank. But fights often don't really make you use your healing kit, and fight designs don't have you using Esuna to remove debuffs because most debuffs can't be cleansed, and those that do, drop off in a few seconds, rather than being minutes. If the fight is giving you room to DPS, then the fight lacks enough heal urgency.

I know how ARR healing worked and I also know that complaints about cleric stance came just as much from non healer mains as it did from healer mains, poetic stance was awkward and messy. It is what it is. Tanks stance was exactly the same. Are you going to argue people who don’t want agro combos back are “blue DPS” and not actual tanks

I healed coils, I know what healing was like back then, and I preferred it but acting like the changes made to healers over the years have been from a concentrated effort of “I like playing a third DPS in the green role” is just straight up a lie. Nor is attempting to bring back “healers” over green dps really useful as a discussion point in this day and age because the only fights explicitly designed without healer damage contribution are first and second coil

I can want more healing back while also arguing for DPS kits being more interesting because we had it in SB

[Bun_Vivant]

I can want more healing back while also arguing for DPS kits being more interesting because we had it in SB

On that note: I've got the Spectral Statice mount on my six EoC characters, and I did it each time with SGE.
Alolalo Island (sp?) gives healers an oGCD AoE "dart" that was quite fun to use with the rest of my SGE kit.
I won't mind at all if the new Euk'd Dyskrasia in DT is similarly fun.

(The Island also gives healers a sort of combined Rampart/Haima that made SGE-self-Cardia-tanking easy, but that's a bit much for group play ...)

[vetch]

There is no “healer main vs green DPS main” there is only healers with differing levels of understanding of the core tenant that square NEVER raises healing requirements

And how often do they increase healer DPS kit complexity?

[IDontPetLalas]

Doesn't work that way. agreed, there is no such distinction between "healer main" and others who "green DPS".
Healer mains some players may want to use healing exclusively, and do 100% of the healing in a fight and only do DPS functions that have extended effects (eg Holy stun, or Gravity "heavy (removed)" .)
Healers who want to heal efficientlyGreen DPS want to do as little healing as possible and constantly beg for in the current job and interaction design likely ask for more DPS functions that veteran healers often should not have time to use.

Your own definition here of "Green DPS are not healer mains", they are people who queue as healer and act as a third DPS, and play like a DPS. You encounter them a lot sometimes, just like any bad player or sprout in Alliance raids where "wow, why are we dying so quickly, oh neither healer has cast a single heal."

If I were to change anything about the game design, I would use an internal MPS/HPS/DPS metric, and just give players a letter grade at the end on "how well you played, and the average letter grade that job has in this duty. Tanks would be graded on what % of mitigable damage they successfully blocked, and penalized on how much damage other party members take due to loss of enmity and KO's. Healers would be graded on % of damage they healed and penalized on overhealing (when there is zero healing needed) and player KO's. DPS would be graded directly upon what fraction of DPS they contributed, and penalized for taking avoidable damage and KO's.

I wonder just how motivated players would be. I doubt it, , in my opinion, since why (for example) would healers l even be healing all avoidable damage, rather than necessary UNavoldable damage?
The goal of that would be directly tell players when they're playing optimally, and when they're playing poorly without needing to use third party tools. Want the "S" grade, you must clear the duty at levelsync+ilevel sync, with the correct party composition. Tanks must retain a 100% uptime on enmity control, Healers must heal all bleed damage and all avoidable damage, and DPS must hit a DPS minimum in every encounter, and avoid all avoidable damage. A rank removes the level sync requirement, and B rank takes all that down to 85%.

Made a few corrections

[IDontPetLalas]

By your own description you're not healer mains. That's fine, but you ignored the point I was making. The game was ORIGINALLY designed to have the Tank-Healer-DPS trinity, and it ORIGINALLY worked that way. But a vocal part of the "Green DPS" people complained that healers didn't get to DPS enough, and the Healer mains complained that Cleric stance was THE obstacle to doing so. So they removed it. No more KO'ing the party because a green DPS wouldn't turn off cleric stance.

But ARR fights were not reworked to consider the healer could DPS. No fight requires the healer to be contributing DPS. If your two DPS has done 800000 damage in a minute, and you are doing zero healing, the most you could do is 200000. So not only do you contribute less than 1/4th of the damage, but doing your job subtracts from that. All you not doing any DPS does is allows the one minute fight to run 15 seconds longer. Having to run back and do the fight again takes longer. Back in ARR the healer would be contributing even less because of CD of cleric stance.

That is the core argument about wanting to be healer main. Your goal is not personal maximum DPS, your goal is maximum uptime OF the DPS and Tank. But fights often don't really make you use your healing kit, and fight designs don't have you using Esuna to remove debuffs because most debuffs can't be cleansed, and those that do, drop off in a few seconds, rather than being minutes. If the fight is giving you room to DPS, then the fight lacks enough heal urgency.

No, by YOUR definition, which is held by you- some people here are not healer mains. As someone who was also a healer main while cleric stance was available, I never had issues with myself nor a co-healer. Did some healers or or other jobs have an issue? I'm sure they did, however my feeling is that Square misconstrued some of the feedback that was received.

I also find it very odd and overreaching that you would say that "no fight requires the healer to be contributing DPS". I very much doubt that this would hold up to close examination in all content.

Finally, your "core argument" is also over-simplified in my view. A job can have more than one goal. YOU may have only one goal- that's fine, however I have multiple priorities and goals when I'm on a healer, that's what makes it interesting - which is why your last sentence- over the entirety of a fight- "If the fight is giving you room to DPS, then the fight lacks enough heal urgency." is out of place in this game.

[Niroken]

No, by YOUR definition, which is held by you- some people here are not healer mains. As someone who was also a healer main while cleric stance was available, I never had issues with myself nor a co-healer. Did some healers or or other jobs have an issue? I'm sure they did, however my feeling is that Square misconstrued some of the feedback that was received.

Cleric Stance was far more punishing if you had a little lag. I remember times when I had to press it twice to remove it on occasion. This is something they could fix pretty easy instead of removing it outright though.

[Kayokane]

The only issue Cleric's Stance really had back then was the cooldown when turning it on did not apply to turning it off leading to frequent double casts turning it off and back on again locking you into DPS stance when you were trying to switch back to Heal Stance. Most healer's ended up just making a set of macros for C.Stance that would swap the hot bar back and forth so C.Stance would be on a different button to prevent the double click from happening. It was annoying but it worked.


All square had to do to 'fix' Cleric's Stance at the time was add a cooldown to turning it off. Instead they decided to completely rework the Healer damage stat to MND (honestly probably just should've been that in the first place) and change Cleric's to a flat 5% damage boost... before removing it entirely.

[Colt47]

With all the healing power the only thing they can do is nerf defense and then we got tons of instant splat attacks that kill off characters, since if the character survives they can just heal back up near instantly.