Dawntrail's mediatour dungeon was already cleared without healers.

[Daralii]

Just make Healers build up most of their Heals by doing DPS things and you will have nice cyclical gameplay that encourages people to play better.

The problem with that from a development standpoint is that they'd have to effectively remake 3 1/2 jobs(SCH probably has enough old damage spells that it'd be a matter of tacking on fairy gauge/Aetherflow generation), including making new abilities from scratch, or it'd just be 2-1-1-1-1-1-1-2 to build resources and would still be pretty boring.

[Turtledeluxe]

Honestly part of me isn’t even that surprised by this, as bad as it is. I truly long for the days healers in ffxiv get to be an actual role and not just ‘one-button-dps-with-healing-cool-down’, but frankly it doesn’t surprise me to see that we’ll be waiting yet another expansion before they can actually be a fun role to play.

I really hope this is just some accidental fluke with the media build and not an indicator of how Dawntrail dungeon gameplay will generally be. Making any role redundant in a ‘role-based’ game is a pretty glaring error in my opinion. I really hope we don’t up back here ( again ) in 8.0, but based on their track history I’d start getting the posts ready lol

Buckle your seat belt.

I hate to be doom and gloom about it but like...does anyone actually believe there's going to be a seismic shift in combat in 7.2 as Yoshi P claims? Something truly different that will stick after the first time? They'll probably add in one tricky mechanic and tell you encounter design is now forever changed.

And frankly I'm being generous. I bet 7.0 plays just like 6.0 outside the job changes.

[Rekh]

burst fantasy xiv

[Absurdity]

And frankly I'm being generous. I bet 7.0 plays just like 6.0 outside the job changes.

Considering most of the job changes do exactly nothing to make said jobs play any different than in Endwalker...7.X will play identical to 6.X.

[Amenara]

I didn't hear any Scholar mains complaining about Expedient getting a 10 second nerf on the movement part, even though it really isn't that bad how it was originally.

Yet anyone that suggest Warrior needs some nerfs, Warrior mains completely lose their minds.

As a warrior and paladin enjoyer I wholeheartedly am in the camp of nerfing the hell out of tank self-sustain and putting the responsibility back on healers to heal. They might even have to cast a couple GCD heals in a dungeon or something.

[KisaiTenshi]

Just make Healers build up most of their Heals by doing DPS things and you will have nice cyclical gameplay that encourages people to play better.

Doesn't work that way. It has to work the other way around, where either "healing damage (not overhealing)" fuels extra DPS functions. Denying the healer opportunities to heal, thus makes that function (eg Afflatus Misery) never happen. Sage doesn't count the damage given to calculate the healing, so as long as 1 point of damage is done, whatever Dosis and Phlegma do is like a 3/4th of a regen tick.

Like, to me. You are always going to see two different arguments presented, one from people who "healer main" and others who "green DPS".
Healer mains want to use healing exclusively, and do 100% of the healing in a fight and only do DPS functions that have extended effects (eg Holy stun, or Gravity "heavy (removed)" .)
Green DPS want to do as little healing as possible and constantly beg for more DPS functions that healers should not have time to use.

Green DPS are not healer mains, they are people who queue as healer and act as a third DPS, and play like a DPS. You encounter them a lot in Alliance raids where "wow, why are we dying so quickly, oh neither healer has cast a single heal."

If I were to change anything about the game design, I would use an internal MPS/HPS/DPS metric, and just give players a letter grade at the end on "how well you played, and the average letter grade that job has in this duty. Tanks would be graded on what % of mitigable damage they successfully blocked, and penalized on how much damage other party members take due to loss of enmity and KO's. Healers would be graded on % of damage they healed and penalized on overhealing (when there is zero healing needed) and player KO's. DPS would be graded directly upon what fraction of DPS they contributed, and penalized for taking avoidable damage and KO's.

The goal of that would be directly tell players when they're playing optimally, and when they're playing poorly without needing to use third party tools. Want the "S" grade, you must clear the duty at levelsync+ilevel sync, with the correct party composition. Tanks must retain a 100% uptime on enmity control, Healers must heal all bleed damage and all avoidable damage, and DPS must hit a DPS minimum in every encounter, and avoid all avoidable damage. A rank removes the level sync requirement, and B rank takes all that down to 85%.

[Supersnow845]

Doesn't work that way. It has to work the other way around, where either "healing damage (not overhealing)" fuels extra DPS functions. Denying the healer opportunities to heal, thus makes that function (eg Afflatus Misery) never happen. Sage doesn't count the damage given to calculate the healing, so as long as 1 point of damage is done, whatever Dosis and Phlegma do is like a 3/4th of a regen tick.

Like, to me. You are always going to see two different arguments presented, one from people who "healer main" and others who "green DPS".
Healer mains want to use healing exclusively, and do 100% of the healing in a fight and only do DPS functions that have extended effects (eg Holy stun, or Gravity "heavy (removed)" .)
Green DPS want to do as little healing as possible and constantly beg for more DPS functions that healers should not have time to use.

Green DPS are not healer mains, they are people who queue as healer and act as a third DPS, and play like a DPS. You encounter them a lot in Alliance raids where "wow, why are we dying so quickly, oh neither healer has cast a single heal."

If I were to change anything about the game design, I would use an internal MPS/HPS/DPS metric, and just give players a letter grade at the end on "how well you played, and the average letter grade that job has in this duty. Tanks would be graded on what % of mitigable damage they successfully blocked, and penalized on how much damage other party members take due to loss of enmity and KO's. Healers would be graded on % of damage they healed and penalized on overhealing (when there is zero healing needed) and player KO's. DPS would be graded directly upon what fraction of DPS they contributed, and penalized for taking avoidable damage and KO's.

The goal of that would be directly tell players when they're playing optimally, and when they're playing poorly without needing to use third party tools. Want the "S" grade, you must clear the duty at levelsync+ilevel sync, with the correct party composition. Tanks must retain a 100% uptime on enmity control, Healers must heal all bleed damage and all avoidable damage, and DPS must hit a DPS minimum in every encounter, and avoid all avoidable damage. A rank removes the level sync requirement, and B rank takes all that down to 85%.

There is no “healer main vs green DPS main” there is only healers with differing levels of understanding of the core tenant that square NEVER raises healing requirements

In your “dichotomy” I would strongly fall into the green DPS, I’m that way because I know square never ups healing requirements, I’ve submitted dozens of reworks to SCH on here arguing it’s pure healing should be nerfed and that it should be forced to rely on succor way more than it does now. However in the absence of any belief that they will ever do that (I mean they gave us seraphism of all abilities which is “play WHM for 20 seconds”) I argue for more complex DPS options

[GoatOfWar]

Like, to me. You are always going to see two different arguments presented, one from people who "healer main" and others who "green DPS".
Healer mains want to use healing exclusively, and do 100% of the healing in a fight and only do DPS functions that have extended effects (eg Holy stun, or Gravity "heavy (removed)" .)
Green DPS want to do as little healing as possible and constantly beg for more DPS functions that healers should not have time to use.

Green DPS are not healer mains, they are people who queue as healer and act as a third DPS, and play like a DPS. You encounter them a lot in Alliance raids where "wow, why are we dying so quickly, oh neither healer has cast a single heal."

There are no green dps mains.
It's just part of your core gameplay, moreso than healing. The game just doesn't support any other playstyle.
You only really need to heal so much, and any healing you do on top is redundant, so what do you do? You dps.
I'd argue that people most passionate about healing are the best at recognising this. They're not green dps mains, they just understand the damage patterns.
And the funny thing is, the vast majority of incoming damage can be handled by ogcd heals, so what are you going to do? Just not use your GCD damage spell?
Just stare at your screen doing nothing?

It just doesn't make any sense to try and split people up in 2 imaginary camps when this is the *intended* experience across over a decade's worth of game design.

[Absurdity]

And the funny thing is, the vast majority of incoming damage can be handled by ogcd heals, so what are you going to do? Just not use your GCD damage spell?
Just stare at your screen doing nothing?

I mean, that's basically what all the "I play healer to only heal"-type players do in dungeons.
They do their mandatory Cure 2 and then either keep spamming it despite everyone being at 100% or they stand around doing nothing.

[DiaDeem]

I was doing Lunar Subterrain a while ago and DC'd during Boss Two, me playing as SCH. I returned to the party about to engage Boss Three, and I'm pretty sure they could have cleared without me.

I usually don't have much of a strong opinion about the whole Job discussion, but this one just makes me sad. I'm not angry, I'm just sad. I'm not gonna stop playing, but... egh