What Do We Want to See? - AST

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

So... either Sch doesn't use their kit or Ast doesn't use their kit. What is the point of having Ast with nocturnal at that point? It would be far more beneficial to a team to have healer with regen and a separate healer with shields than have two shield healers with one being unable to use gcd heals. What happens when a run starts to go sideways? You are sitting there stuck with one healer unable to spam their aoe because, you know, shields don't stack. Unless you solely do normal content, this would be massively unfeasible and I don't see any group that would be willing to do it. SGE/SCH works because SGE has the capability to spam heals that aren't shields should the need arise (even if they are a weaker version of medica I or helios). I don't understand this take.

And how is SGE a copy pasta of AST with nocturnal? Because they can shield and have a regen skill? SGE is equipped with more mitigation than AST, has a reapplying shield (Panheima), and a laser cannon that heals the party not to mention a ton of other abilities the AST doesn't have as well as AST skills that the SGE does not have. SGE is the dps healer. AST is the pre-planning healer. Just because a few of the abilities are slightly similar does not make them copies.

GCD heals did not stack. But oGCD still does, which what made the comp viable, although wasn't optimal back then. Earthly Star? Opposition? Essential? Overpowered Noct Intersection? Yeah they all do. Neutral was also there. SCH/SGE do not see much of an issue today because they're both mitigative & HPS monster with the latter having literally every single piece of their action littered with questionable heals even when they're not properly used. (Pan)Haima & Holos are probably the more egregious examples. Noct AST back then only had Helios & Neutral to fall back on should they needed to pump out heal when their SCH mate was down for whatever reason.

Also my copy pasta comment was referring to how SGE is quite literally a carbon copy of SCH minus opportunity costs. The only similar part about Noct AST and today's SGE is literally only their fully mobile ST GCD shield.

EDIT: to be clear, my comment to Percibel was mostly me lamenting how pointless SE's attempt to split the healers in Regen/Barrier dichotomy. If Noct AST stayed throughout 6.0 - today, there really won't be any harm at all. Most people would probably still go Diurnal. Nocturnal probably won't be optimal, but still viable, which is my point. It's not broken, and some did enjoyed that 'playstyle'. The only few QoL they needed was to ensure only stronger barrier remained intact & maybe try to build a way for ASTs to dance between sects with added risks, if the player want to.

When SGE shipped out and people still able to pair both barriers together, albeit by designating who to prioritize GCD shielding (aka the same way as old Noct AST + SCH comp did in the past), it begs the question... then why do we even remove Noct AST at all if that same problem just jumps ship to today's SGE? (and in addition to that, being a carbon copy of an existing job instead of something fresh in that new design space... but that's a rambling for another thread) All of this just screams "Noct AST was removed for absolutely no reason".

[Ari_Calithiel]

GCD heals did not stack. But oGCD still does, which what made the comp viable, although wasn't optimal back then. Earthly Star? Opposition? Essential? Overpowered Noct Intersection? Yeah they all do. Neutral was also there. SCH/SGE do not see much of an issue today because they're both mitigative & HPS monster with the latter having literally every single piece of their action littered with questionable heals even when they're not properly used. (Pan)Haima & Holos are probably the more egregious examples. Noct AST back then only had Helios & Neutral to fall back on should they needed to pump out heal when their SCH mate was down for whatever reason.

Also my copy pasta comment was referring to how SGE is quite literally a carbon copy of SCH minus opportunity costs. The only similar part about Noct AST and today's SGE is literally only their fully mobile ST GCD shield.

EDIT: to be clear, my comment to Percibel was mostly me lamenting how pointless SE's attempt to split the healers in Regen/Barrier dichotomy. If Noct AST stayed throughout 6.0 - today, there really won't be any harm at all. Most people would probably still go Diurnal. Nocturnal probably won't be optimal, but still viable, which is my point. It's not broken, and some did enjoyed that 'playstyle'. The only few QoL they needed was to ensure only stronger barrier remained intact & maybe try to build a way for ASTs to dance between sects with added risks, if the player want to.

When SGE shipped out and people still able to pair both barriers together, albeit by designating who to prioritize GCD shielding (aka the same way as old Noct AST + SCH comp did in the past), it begs the question... then why do we even remove Noct AST at all if that same problem just jumps ship to today's SGE? (and in addition to that, being a carbon copy of an existing job instead of something fresh in that new design space... but that's a rambling for another thread) All of this just screams "Noct AST was removed for absolutely no reason".

So to summarize, because they removed an ogcd single target regen and an ogcd aoe shield (that was weaker by 35% than scholar and sages gcd shield) everyone is up in arms? These abilities that had a 30 sec and 60 sec cd respectively? I don't get it. Earthly star still exists and was unaffected by the sect. Collective unconscious now actually got buffed to include the regen and the mitigation. But because we don't have 2 ogcds, everyone is upset. This seems like a bit of a silly gripe. We now have the ability to apply shields, albeit gcd, with the new nocturnal which stacks in times of emergency and there have been a few moments where it was needed in the recent tiers.

Now to the point of SGE/SCH combo. I took a quick peek at FFlogs site and the number of recorded SGE/SCH logs for savage in the last tier (Anabaseios) were 42. The number of WHM/SCH? 430. The number of WHM/SGE? 871. I am not sure why I keep seeing people talk about SGE/SCH as if it is some godly combo. It is decent, but as I stated in a previous reply, they do not handle things going off script well. Heals need to be more planned out in order for it to work well as neither job has the ability to pump heals should things go off track. I know because I completed P5S-P7S in a SGE/SCH combo. The mit is great, but if our team lost their minds, recovering was hell. Additionally, SGE's extra little heals they do on both Panhaima and Holos (which you mentioned) are not the primary reasons you use them and are honestly not even very big. Holos has a cure potency of 300 with a small shield and the mit and is on a 2 minute Cd. Panhaima has 5 shields with 200 potency heal a piece with the leftovers at the end of the duration only healing for 100 potency a stack. These aren't big numbers when translated into direct heals. They likely exist as SGE does not have the monsterous shield potential as SCH.

SCH and SGE differences... they are similar, sure. But the way they should be played and their kit differs enough so that they are separate. If I were to go in depth on this, it would turn into a novel.

To your comment about how AST having nocturnal would cause "no harm," you have to think about it from the devs point of view. They now have 2 dedicated shield healers. And then there is AST. If AST keeps Nocturnal, then WHMs will want a similar spell. Then SGE and SCH will want to be able to pump heals like AST and WHM. Then there is no split and all healers are starting to become the same. You know this is true because people are already crying for AST to have some kind of special movement speed ability now that WHM has a yeet. And honestly, there is no need for nocturnal AST. It is truly just a watered down shield healer, a jack of all trades, master of none. It's current iteration is a stronger, smarter version of how it should be. Maybe the request would be to have it affect the ogcds during its duration rather than to request the whole sect back.

Also, you speak of healing as people should only be ogcd healing but then say that SGE players and SCH players who raided together would "assign" who to shield. This doesn't happen. You still don't want to gcd heal even with this combo. The only time I would shield anyone during my SGE/SCH combo was if the player walked into stupid and was about to die, had just rezzed and I had no stacks, or was the tank and my co-healer and I agreed before hand who was doing what. And according to you, Noct AST was only interested in the 2 ogcd abilities you mentioned above. So why is Noct AST even necessary for 2 ogcds that you could have alternate effects to?

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

So to summarize, because they removed an ogcd single target regen and an ogcd aoe shield (that was weaker by 35% than scholar and sages gcd shield) everyone is up in arms?[...]

I never implied that everybody was up in arm because of that solely. There might be more reasons why people get upset of its removal, so please do not put words in my mouth. I was just pointing out that it was not optimal but still possible & not game breaking in any way. They should expand on that rather than just straight up deleting elements like they always do.

Now to the point of SGE/SCH combo. I took a quick peek at FFlogs site[...]

Ever considered that the words of a job dev describing their vision of Regen/Barrier dichotomy may be affecting how general mass interact with the role? This was especially true early expac where I often seen folks limiting the healer slots to WHM/AST + SCH/SGE. Over time, this practice died off, but by then, it was already ingrained too deep in the mass perspective that "1 regen 1 barrier good; double regen/barrier bad" (paraphrase). They are still viable regardless how you describe them to be more punishing to mistakes (I partially agree to that) as Noct AST + SCH certainly did, and that's been my point. I care less about conversing how optimal/unoptimal they are.

To your comment about how AST having nocturnal would cause "no harm," you have to think about it from the devs point of view[...]

I don't remember seeing WHM asking for Nocturnal (shields) flavored spells back in ShB. All I remembered was WHM asking for utilities that can mean many different things than just mere shields, and they did sorely needed more utilities than just Temperance.

Also, you speak of healing as people should only be ogcd healing but then say that SGE players and SCH players who raided together would "assign" who to shield. This doesn't happen.

When I mentioned "designating who to prioritize GCD shielding", I meant "when something hits the fan & either SCH or SGE cannot afford to ignore the mishap without one of them biting the GCD heal". I hope that clears up the misunderstanding.

I also never said that I only find the interest with the 2 ogcds you kept mentioning. Not sure why would you ask me that last question when I believe I've been super clear about how Noct AST+SCH was not optimal but still viable, so why remove (not a question to you btw)? To accommodate the Regen/Barrier split? If so then they have failed in every front but naming/title because double barrier/regen remains viable but at the cost of a playstyle remembered as "Noct AST" - a cost that should not even had to be paid, but they scapegoated it anyway just because.

[Ari_Calithiel]

I never implied that everybody was up in arm because of that solely. There might be more reasons why people get upset of its removal, so please do not put words in my mouth. I was just pointing out that it was not optimal but still possible & not game breaking in any way. They should expand on that rather than just straight up deleting elements like they always do.

Not sure why you are bristling here. You brought up those 2 ogcds. And during the age of nocturnal sect, the only ogcds that were affected were celestial opposition, celestial intersection, and collective unconscious. We have the benefits of both sects in collective now with the regen and mit. And to expand on nocturnal sect in future updates would be to encroach on the shield healer domain and to have AST sitting in a position where it is both and neither shield healer nor regen healer. It's shield healing was sub-par to that of a SCH and to that of the SGE. If they were to continue down that route, we would likely have spells that can do shield or regen but are not the best in either healing type. That sounds terrible to me. And as I keep saying, AST's identity is its ability to pre-plan heals.

I don't remember seeing WHM asking for Nocturnal (shields) flavored spells back in ShB. All I remembered was WHM asking for utilities that can mean many different things than just mere shields, and they did sorely needed more utilities than just Temperance.

Except WHM's have been asking for shields... which is why they are receiving them in DT. AST only worked with nocturnal spec because it was the odd healer out. But now there is a clear divide with the addition of SGE.

I also never said that I only find the interest with the 2 ogcds you kept mentioning. Not sure why would you ask me that last question when I believe I've been super clear about how Noct AST+SCH was not optimal but still viable, so why remove (not a question to you btw)? To accommodate the Regen/Barrier split? If so then they have failed in every front but naming/title because double barrier/regen remains viable but at the cost of a playstyle remembered as "Noct AST" - a cost that should not even had to be paid, but they scapegoated it anyway just because.

It is not a viable combo. I explained this in a different reply, but AST's only spammable aoe is helios and A. helios. Helios is a much weaker version than A. helios. If an AST was to go noct, and spamming heals was needed, AST would not be able to deliver as well as a shield/regen healer combo. Shields overwrite each other and if a SCH and noct AST were to spam their aoe at the same time, the party would lose out on the healing from one of the healers shields. In fights like P10S or P8S part 2, every bit of healing matters greatly. Additionally, if an AST were to in a panic aoe heal after a SCH spreadlos, that spreadlo is gone. Nocturnal sect was a neat ability that just does not work really well. It was not as popular a combo as it is made out to be. Sure it was viable in a sense, but why keep something that isn't really adding anything to the identity of the class? It is not meant to be a shield healer. Its identity is a pre-planning, foresight healer. And we still get to keep the shields every 2 minutes. So I still don't get the fuss.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]

CU has remained that way since ShB; having the benefit of two sects regardless minus the gigantic buff on its mit radius we got in 6.3 (lol). One just had to remember which one stays for 15s and which one snaps at first 5s in addition to what sect they're on at the moment.

I also do not agree with how its 'ability to preplan heals' being an identity befitting to an AST when any healer - regardless of their choice - once they steps into EX/Savage+ environment, that's what they will have to do to a varied degree, no exception. WHM and/or SGE may have an edge in an uncoordinated lobbies, but they're not exempt to that rule. Unless you mean delayed heals like Horoscope, Micro, and Star?

Regarding WHM asking for shields, perhaps I've been mistaken if that's the case! Now that you mention it, there had been some asking for shields specifically (i.e. shielding lilies) but I remember there were more asking for 'more utilities' which like I said, can amount to more than just shields in this forum back then.

I never got into P8S p2 so I cannot comment on that. But I do remember P10S fondly and I could assure you myself & my co-SGE wasn't some godly coordinated double barrier partners, and we got into those instances when we needed to GCD heal spam the Harrowing Hell when some pulls mit plans gone south back in 6.4. We did exactly that: myself under Dissipation spamming Succors while they're Prognosis spamming once we've exhausted our other venues - it wasn't optimal, but we got through that without tank LB. Now replace my co-SGE with a hypothetical Noct AST who would also spam Helios after they've exhausted their venues. Why wouldn't that be viable? As for panic heals? Well that's where party wipe comes into play. I personally don't think a job should have its flavor deleted just because X player cannot manage to calm their nerves down in a content where such resilience is more or less required to a certain degree. By that logic, they should delete E.Prognosis too because that interferes with SCH's Recit-Spreadlo when what SE could've done was to at least force the stronger shield to remain intact until it has whittled enough to be overwritten. Who knows, that could've been more intuitive to common eyes when they see big "NO EFFECT" on their pretty spells instead of happily seeing their pretty shield icon appearing next to their party member's buff bar not paying attention they just overwrote their stronger co-healer's GCD shields.

All that aside, you might have noticed from reading my first post in this thread that I do liked the idea of bringing back the noct sect. Of course, adding just that would be a mere band aid. Ideally I prefer to have some stance dancing, or anything more than just their return to those who want to capitalize that. That's too much of a potential to pass in my eyes & I will not change my mind until SE surprises me, in a good way hopefully.

[Ari_Calithiel]

CU has remained that way since ShB; having the benefit of two sects regardless. One just had to remember which one stays for 15s and which one snaps at first 5s in addition to what sect they're on at the moment.

I took my friend's explanation of old CU without looking it up myself, and that is my fault. Regardless, the current iteration is both less confusing and incorporates both aspects anyway.

I also do not agree with how its 'ability to preplan heals' being an identity befitting to an AST when any healer - regardless of their choice - once they steps into EX/Savage+ environment, that's what they will have to do to a varied degree, no exception. WHM and/or SGE may have an edge in an uncoordinated lobbies, but they're not exempt to that rule. Unless you mean delayed heals like Horoscope, Micro, and Star?

Ya, I meant more of the delayed healing. Probably could have worded it better, but my initial posts from yesterday were when I was stupid sleep deprived and brain English bad with no sleep.

Regarding WHM asking for shields, perhaps I've been mistaken if that's the case! Now that you mention it, there had been some asking for shields specifically (i.e. shielding lilies) but I remember there were more asking for 'more utilities' which like I said, can amount to more than just shields in this forum back then.

I honestly think it is really cool that every healer gets a taste of the other side. Not enough to homogenize, but enough that you can do some neat things together.

I never got into P8S p2 so I cannot comment on that.

It was hell, do not recommend.

But I do remember P10S fondly and I could assure you myself & my co-SGE wasn't some godly coordinated double barrier partners, and we got into those instances when we needed to GCD heal spam the Harrowing Hell when some pulls mit plans gone south back in 6.4. We did exactly that: myself under Dissipation spamming Succors while they're Prognosis spamming once we've exhausted our other venues - it wasn't optimal, but we got through that without tank LB. Now replace my co-SGE with a hypothetical Noct AST who would also spam Helios after they've exhausted their venues. Why wouldn't that be viable? As for panic heals? Well that's where party wipe comes into play. I personally don't think a job should have its flavor deleted just because X player cannot manage to calm their nerves down in a content where such resilience is more or less required to a certain degree. By that logic, they should delete E.Prognosis too because that interferes with SCH's Recit-Spreadlo when what SE could've done was to at least force the stronger shield to remain intact until it has whittled enough to be overwritten. Who knows, that could've been more intuitive to common eyes when they see big "NO EFFECT" on their pretty spells instead of happily seeing their pretty shield icon appearing next to their party member's buff bar not paying attention they just overwrote their stronger co-healer's GCD shields.

And that is totally valid. My beef with nocturnal AST is that is a much weaker version than either SGE or SCH. It brings nothing to the table in terms of shield healing. The only 2 buttons that were of any interest in nocturnal were the 2 ogcds that we discussed. And this could be an easy fix by adding their changes to the current nocturnal. You would essentially only be losing 1 charge of the aoe ogcd shield with current noct and do we really need another ST heal? Our current kit is already so broken that astros are clearing ultimates and other content as a solo raid healer.

All that aside, you might have noticed from reading my first post in this thread that I do liked the idea of bringing back the noct sect. Of course, adding just that would be a mere band aid. Ideally I prefer to have some stance dancing, or anything more than just their return to those who want to capitalize that. That's too much of a potential to pass in my eyes & I will not change my mind until SE surprises me, in a good way hopefully.

I agree, stance dancing sounds fun. It sounds challenging and exciting and makes me wish for something like it. I just don't think nocturnal is it for reasons I already mentioned. I heard that cleric stance used to be a thing and that sounds intriguing to me if it could be adjusted to fit current raiding styles.

But for now, I'm desperately praying for them to reverse the card changes. As it stands, that is the most glaring issue for AST. Those changes gut the very essence of AST and make it a more braindead healer than what it should be. I love the challenge AST brings and I personally want it to remain a high skill cap job.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]But for now, I'm desperately praying for them to reverse the card changes. As it stands, that is the most glaring issue for AST. Those changes gut the very essence of AST and make it a more braindead healer than what it should be. I love the challenge AST brings and I personally want it to remain a high skill cap job.

I'm with you there. Noct sect talks was just one from many aspects that I sorely missed. But if I have to pick a priority, card system would've been the clear winner here. I severely dislike seeing DT AST having their card system turned into "Diet SCH Aetherflow".

===

Also while we're on the topic of ASTs, there's this one thread that I found in JP Healer subforum.

Tl;dr the OP are requesting StB flavored cards, complete with its RNG control tools such as Royal Road, Spread, & MA. While it's generally looked down upon to simply bumping threads without adding anything into the discussion, those who'd like such system vs DT's upcoming iteration could probably try upvoting their post. It may or may not do anything, but never said folks didn't try.