The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[MagiusNecros]

Define Job identity.

Every job plays the same in PVE. Every job plays differently in PVP down to playstyle, kit and unique effects that only that job class brings. Which goes beyond a raid buff or 2 minute burst or a 5 action Fell Cleave window.

All there is to it. Only PVE job with identity is Blue Mage. And eventually Beastmaster.

[Mikey_R]

Every job plays the same in PVE.

Hard disagree. Monk plays nothing like Paladin, which automatically invalidates what you said. Different roles? Ok, Monk plays differently to Dragoon. Again, instantly invalidates the point.

machinist plays differently to Bard which plays differently to Dancer, Summoner plays differently to Black mage who plays differently to Red Mage.

I could go on, you need to be more specific.

[MagiusNecros]

Hard disagree.

I hard disagree with your hard disagree. All the classes in PVE play similar to a DPS Warrior. But hey whatever mental gymnastics you need to do to sleep at night. All I see is a poor strawman argument.

I answered your question. If the best you can retort is "No you are wrong" without rebuking with facts and reason then you have no argument. And given your response you are set in your ways. Good day to you.

[Mikey_R]

I hard disagree with your hard disagree. All the classes in PVE play similar to a DPS Warrior. But hey whatever mental gymnastics you need to do to sleep at night. All I see is a poor strawman argument.

I answered your question. If the best you can retort is "No you are wrong" without rebuking with facts and reason then you have no argument. And given your response you are set in your ways. Good day to you.

you're the one who made the initial claim that all jobs played the same, so it is technically down to you to explain how they are the same, however, let's humour you.

Raid buffs, not every job has a raid buff, notably most healers and tanks, however it also extends to DPS with SAM, MCH and BLM having no raid buffs.

The 2 minute burst is problematic, yes, however, not all jobs technically burst every 2 minutes. Paladin as an example has no 2 minute cooldowns, so their 1 minute burst is the same as their 2 minute burst, so it is technically a 1 minute job, this would also apply to the old PLD.

Even jobs like Monk, Dark Knight and Ninja don't technically fully commit to the 2 minute burst as they have cooldowns which have a 90 second recast time on them, which means everything lines up every 6 minutes, though most of it is every 2 minutes.

5 action fell cleave window. Ignoring it is now 3 fell cleaves per Inner Release, this isn't true either. Even the job most compared to War in that regard, DRK, has other things to consider before you get to pressing Delirium that Warrior doesn't have to consider. However, again, not every job has '3 fell cleave button'. Monk, Dragoon, Samurai, Ninja, Reaper, Black Mage (they have more to consider than just no thought Fire 4 spam), bard, Machinist.

This is also forgetting the fact you have focused on very very little of the job's kit. Burst every 2 minutes (of which even the 2 minute raid buffs are different) and one button fell cleave equivalent. Okay, what about how the job builds resources in order to execute the bursts, how do jobs spend their time between bursts, do they have mini bursts at 1 minute, 30 seconds, are there things you need to plan ahead before going into burst, etc.

By making such generalised statements, that you haven't even checked to see whether it is true or not, you have failed to think about what you are saying. This is partly why I said I disagreed with your statement and only scratches the surface of why jobs are different.

i guess that means it's your move.

[MagiusNecros]

you're the one who made the initial claim that all jobs played the same, so it is technically down to you to explain how they are the same, however, let's humour you.

You asked to define job identity and jobs playing similar in PVE all leads to a lack of identity

Raid buffs

This is correct, however raid buffs do not reflect how a job class plays

The 2 minute burst is problematic, yes, however, not all jobs technically burst every 2 minutes. Paladin as an example has no 2 minute cooldowns, so their 1 minute burst is the same as their 2 minute burst, so it is technically a 1 minute job, this would also apply to the old PLD.

With a few exceptions there are classes that have 1 minute bursts. However most have 2 minute bursts that they need to line up or delay for other classes 2 minute bursts. Sentinel, Cover, Passage are all 2 minute CDs. So the statement that PLD has no 2 minute CDs at all is false.

Even jobs like Monk, Dark Knight and Ninja don't technically fully commit to the 2 minute burst as they have cooldowns which have a 90 second recast time on them, which means everything lines up every 6 minutes, though most of it is every 2 minutes.

But they still have to conform to the 2 minute meta in a coordinated raid setting

5 action fell cleave window. Ignoring it is now 3 fell cleaves per Inner Release, this isn't true either. Even the job most compared to War in that regard, DRK, has other things to consider before you get to pressing Delirium that Warrior doesn't have to consider. However, again, not every job has '3 fell cleave button'. Monk, Dragoon, Samurai, Ninja, Reaper, Black Mage (they have more to consider than just no thought Fire 4 spam), bard, Machinist.

Warrior spams Cleave, DRK spams Bloodspiller(with new Delirium in 7.0 this may change), GNB spams Gnashing and Burst Strike and is limited by No Mercy windows, Monk has Perfect Balance phase, DRG is an outlier aiming towards triple Nastrond into Stardiver, SAM is Midare Spam, NIN is Raijin spam, Reaper is Enshroud spam, BLM is Fire 4 spam, Bard cycles through Bloodletter or Pitch Perfect spam, MCH is Heat Blast Spam. So it would seem that actually multiple jobs do indeed have a Fell Cleave phase after all.

This is also forgetting the fact you have focused on very very little of the job's kit. Burst every 2 minutes (of which even the 2 minute raid buffs are different) and one button fell cleave equivalent. Okay, what about how the job builds resources in order to execute the bursts, how do jobs spend their time between bursts, do they have mini bursts at 1 minute, 30 seconds, are there things you need to plan ahead before going into burst, etc.

So do your 1-2-3 a couple times to build meter and then you burst. And using your 2 minute which is usually generating half your gauge to have a bigger burst. Most jobs have this.

Check bolded.

[Mikey_R]

Since I can't quote what's in a quote directly, lets make this hard on myself.

You asked to define job identity and jobs playing similar in PVE all leads to a lack of identity

But what is identity. You still haven't answered that very basic question. All you have said is all jobs play the same, but you haven't really laid out any criteria that would help to distinguish jobs and give them unique identities.

This is correct, however raid buffs do not reflect how a job class plays

No it doesn't, so why list it?

With a few exceptions there are classes that have 1 minute bursts. However most have 2 minute bursts that they need to line up or delay for other classes 2 minute bursts. Sentinel, Cover, Passage are all 2 minute CDs. So the statement that PLD has no 2 minute CDs at all is false.

So again, you agree they don't all play the same. Also, the fact PLD has 2 minute defensive cooldowns is irrelevant as the topic was about, and I quote, "2 minute burst".

Warrior spams Cleave, DRK spams Bloodspiller(with new Delirium in 7.0 this may change), GNB spams Gnashing and Burst Strike and is limited by No Mercy windows, Monk has Perfect Balance phase, DRG is an outlier aiming towards triple Nastrond into Stardiver, SAM is Midare Spam, NIN is Raijin spam, Reaper is Enshroud spam, BLM is Fire 4 spam, Bard cycles through Bloodletter or Pitch Perfect spam, MCH is Heat Blast Spam. So it would seem that actually multiple jobs do indeed have a Fell Cleave phase after all.

Yes, Warrior spams cleave, however there isn't much more they need to worry about. With DRK's Delerium, with it being paired with Blood Weapon every time, you need to make sure you aren't going to overcap on Blood during this window as, for 3 GCDs, you cannot get rid of any Blood (except the 2 minute windows with Living Shadow), Gnashing Fang is something that happens every 30 seconds and you need to make sure you have a cartridge ready to use it, it isn't activated by an oGCD buff, same with Burst Strike, however, Burst Strike is closer to a gauge spender than a fell cleave spam. PB is not in any way a fell cleave spam, it is using certain GCDs in order to perform a specific Masterful Blitz which takes more thought in it's execution than just spamming fell cleave. Midare Spam, which they literally cannot do to the same degree as Fell Cleave, Raijin Spam, You could claim this, however, that misses the fact you have to set them up with Raiton and not just pressing an oGCD, which does also mean getting the right Mudra combinations, a little bit more involved than just IRFC. Enshroud Spam, going between 2 buttons, with an activated oGCD and a cast at the end as well as making your GCD faster, yes, clearly the same. Fire 4 spam, if you ignore everything else you have to consider including the AF timer and anything caused by non standard lines. Bloodletter and Pitch Perfect are not even close to Fell Cleave spam. Heat Blast spam, which also reduces the cooldown on Gauss Round and Ricochet and you have to be mindful that you don't clip into the GCD of your tools.

So, there are some very dubious correlations and again, with some, you just focused on the fact a move was used several times in succession whilst ignoring the other things the job has to consider. Infact, I am shocked beyond belief that you did not say Paladin's Blade combo. That is, by far, the closest you will get to Fell Cleave Spam with about the only difference being you can use it at range.

So do your 1-2-3 a couple times to build meter and then you burst. And using your 2 minute which is usually generating half your gauge to have a bigger burst. Most jobs have this.

Which, again, is ignoring how you build to your burst. The gameplay between bursts is just as important as the burst phases themselves.

However all this said going back to your original question what is job identity? It boils down to what does each job do that makes it unique from every other job.

Such as?

In PvP however there is a LOT of deviation. Down to defensives that grant damage shields and boost defense, AoE stuns, draw-ins/knockback, HP sacrificing attacks, GNB draw changing skills in your kit based on what role you used draw on, polymorph, AoE invulns, attacks that render you invulnerable to damage, true stealth and Death Link, Counter Attacks, delayed damage, fear effects, aoe buffs, crowd control, charm, stance swapping among others. Not to mention personal Limit Breaks that gives every player their own moment of glory and satisfaction. Which all serves to give these classes the identity players are looking for.

Ah yes, everyone's favourite topic at the moment, let's go though this:
-Defensives that grant shields, got that.
-AoE stuns, WHM Holy says hi. Though you cannot have that on too many jobs, otherwise that is a loss of identity after all.
-Draw-ins/Knockbacks. Don't know if you suffered MCH's Blank and WHM Fluid Aura, they were a pain. Draw-ins could be useful, don't see much point mechanically, but no reason why it couldn't be there for flavour. Not that either would work on bosses.
-HP sacrifice, generally considered a bad idea. Your bad HP management doesn't tend to be a you problem, it tends to be the healer's problem. And don't get me started on trying to balance HP drain to balance it out.
-GNB Draw, use DPS, that is it. You might occasionally take a defensive, if you have nothing left, but that is a last resort.
-Polymorph, wouldn't work. Bosses would be immune and turning a trash mob into an imp for some amount of time isn't going to change much. Better off retooling the button for something else.
-AoE Invulns. Yes, lets trivialise whole mechanics. Not to mention they wouldn't work for important mechanics.
-PLD/GNB say hi to full invulnerability. Don't want them to lose their identity after all.
-True Stealth and Death Link. true Stealth would just be a buff that allows you to do something, wouldn't really affect anything fight wise. Death Link wouldn't be insta killing anything, so it is just another attack that does damage.
-Counter attacks, Vengeance. Don't want to lose that identity.
-Delayed damage, Wildfire, don't want to lose that identity.
-Fear/Crowd Control/Charm. Enemies running away is annoying, CC could be useful of our attacks didn't instantly knock them out of it, though this is the same as AoE stun. Charm, effectively a draw-in, but you take no damage.
-AoE buffs, 2 minute raid buffs say hi. As for more localised buffs, could be a pain in the arse to manage depending on bosses and how you move around the arena.
-Stance Swapping. Tank stances didn't do what most claim they do, BLM swaps stances between AF and UI, Bard's songs could be seen as stances as well.
-Personal LBs, basically a long cooldown action.

Here is the problem. People see things in PvP, think, oo, that's cool, but never think about how it would function in a PvE setting. Alot of things will not work.

[Rithy255]

Hard disagree. Monk plays nothing like Paladin, which automatically invalidates what you said. Different roles? Ok, Monk plays differently to Dragoon. Again, instantly invalidates the point.

machinist plays differently to Bard which plays differently to Dancer, Summoner plays differently to Black mage who plays differently to Red Mage.

I could go on, you need to be more specific.

When you look at Tank & Healers, they do "play" the same as one another, Tanks generally don't have "interesting rotations" enough to vastly be different a example being DRK Vs PLD, Drk's main differences are that it has high APM (which mind you DRK's being slown down pretty heavily in DT), While PLD has more spam gcd's in general (that you get from your 1, 2, 3), Both aren't very interesting enough in variety while technically being different in reality both are very bland, the argument could be said they're "both tanks!" but that doesn't really matter with FF14 design because tanking is designed to be as bare bones as it can be, anything "unique" about being a tank has been pretty much removed from the game. Personally I think tanks should have way more rotational variety.

I don't really need to debate healers do I? I hope not.

For DPS, I actually agree with you Jobs like Monk vs Dragoon don't play the same, for the most part DPS are fine, Reaper & Summoner I dislike but I'm happy that theirs jobs for beginners (Although with summoner they need more casts per minute), "2 Minute meta" can effect this as we generally have jobs designed around bursts, I do think 2 minute meta hurts variety a bit but doesn't completely remove variety but it does sort of hinder it. I feel as if Melee are pretty "bland" as in theirs no sort of melee that deviates from the standard structure of rotation based jobs, such as having a melee with a lot of proc based gameplay ect. I'll add that I think 2 minute meta is a big reason why jobs feel the same as most jobs work towards that big burst, then cycle on a basic rotation until that big burst, hence why even if a job feels different theirs a lot of similarities to even the most "different" of jobs.

When people mention Job variety (aka jobs are samey, in the sense they don't bring anything unique on the table) I think some people want certain jobs to offer more then just rotation variety, which is another topic for another day, But I feel as the main issue comes in tank and healer design where both roles in general are suffering from having jobs mesh, all being builder spenders or in healers case just being press one button, Cooldowns/support on those jobs are pretty much the same, with small room for differences.

[Mikey_R]

1. When you look at Tank & Healers, they do "play" the same as one another, Tanks generally don't have "interesting rotations" enough to vastly be different...

2. I don't really need to debate healers do I? I hope not.

3. For DPS, I actually agree with you Jobs like Monk vs Dragoon don't play the same, for the most part DPS are fine, Reaper & Summoner I dislike but I'm happy that theirs jobs for beginners (Although with summoner they need more casts per minute), "2 Minute meta" can effect this as we generally have jobs designed around bursts, I do think 2 minute meta hurts variety a bit but doesn't completely remove variety but it does sort of hinder it. I feel as if Melee are pretty "bland" as in theirs no sort of melee that deviates from the standard structure of rotation based jobs, such as having a melee with a lot of proc based gameplay ect. I'll add that I think 2 minute meta is a big reason why jobs feel the same as most jobs work towards that big burst, then cycle on a basic rotation until that big burst, hence why even if a job feels different theirs a lot of similarities to even the most "different" of jobs.

1. For me, tanks should have an easier rotation, however, tanks should also be the ones manipulating the boss in order to make the lives of the other players easier. Unfortunately, over time, this aspect of tanking has devolved which is why so much emphasis is put on their damage rotation. A couple of easy things are tanks being able to manipulate boss positions, having more reason to use your Interventions, TBNs etc. and one idea that I have had is making stuns and interrupts useful, but not necessarily for stopping attacks outright, but changing damage profiles. Altering how that damage comes out.

2. Nope. Healers have a lot of things that haven't worked in their favour. They need more cohesion between their damage and healing kit and then forcing them to actually make the choice between a damage GCD and a healing GCD. The things is, healer design not only relies on the healer's themselves, but also tank kits and encounter design.

3. I would agree, the 2 minute meta does hurt job design space, however, if you want true creative freedom, then damage raid buffs have to go completely, which would make every DPS a selfish DPS. This doesn't mean a party cannot contribute to you though. Things like Arcane Circle, Brotherhood and Technical Step all have things other than the damage component that allows the party to help out that one job, whether it is powering up Plentiful Harvest or giving the Monk or Dancer resources. However, that idea isn't going to go down well with very many people as they want to buff the damage of someone else, so some considerations have to be made. Massively reducing the number of raid wide damage buffs is going to make the 2 minute window far less effective and will allow jobs to diversify away from it.

[Rithy255]

Snip.

1. Tanks can have a simple rotation but it shouldn't be as simple as it is currently, but I don believe tanks need to have more combo paths in general, they already have a slower gcd then most melee jobs, They also have no paths outside warrior... which makes them feel very bland and samey, I'm not asking for every tank to have a complex fast rotation but more combo paths or more to set Tanks aside from one another DPS Wise would actually help make the game more interesting, I also think tanks should have mechs where they need to use intervention, TBN Ect (outside of using it on the other tank)or stuns/interrupts more often, I sort of like that tanks have utility similar to healers but i wish we had a lot more use cases of said utility. I just feel that tanks are in a bad spot gameplay wise because rotations are made to be super easy but playing a tank for tanking skills isn't exactly engaging anymore... I think Tanks need more rotational complexity in general still, doesn't need to be to the level of DPS, But more importance on tanking skills would also be fun

2. Healer design doesn't work because they don't often need to GCD heal Imo, the choice between damage and healing is what makes a healer fun, Jobs bringing utility to work with a healer instead of replacing their job is also fun, being able to save GCD's for attacks because of cooperation is healthy, I do think we get into certain instances where abilities such as Bloodwhetting is too much in AOE situations where you can't really balance healers around it, but the fix there would to be make the heal not per enemy. Even if 90% of what it effects is dungeon content I don't think dungeon metas should be 3 DPS and 1 Tank. I don't think healers need a rotation but some more procs and damage buttons would also go nicely.

3. I feel like raid buffs are kind of in a spot where some can be removed, Personally If I were to keep buffs I'd keep, Certain things such as Bards consistent buffs, Some 2 minute buffs but also be fine with more 1 minute buffs or single target buffs, I think the key is that not every DPS outside 3 of the different categories needs a damage buff, it's more Unique to be a "selfish DPS" then to be a buff DPS which strikes me as odd... But I think 2 minute meta isn't a massive issue I'd argue DPS is in a fairly good spot, But I would like jobs to be less about just building and spending into the 2 minutes, but I don't think that can be avoided I just think buffs need to be changed in a direction that makes them more interesting then "lol you press button once every two minutes"

Can't say I disagree with you, I think the main focus should be looking at Tank/healer design. I do think people are somewhat valid in disliking the 2 minute meta, personally im pretty neutral on it, but I think it's valid to at least say jobs are starting to feel more samey and closer together then they have been in the past.

[Mikey_R]

3. I feel like raid buffs are kind of in a spot where some can be removed, Personally If I were to keep buffs I'd keep, Certain things such as Bards consistent buffs, Some 2 minute buffs but also be fine with more 1 minute buffs or single target buffs, I think the key is that not every DPS outside 3 of the different categories needs a damage buff, it's more Unique to be a "selfish DPS" then to be a buff DPS which strikes me as odd... But I think 2 minute meta isn't a massive issue I'd argue DPS is in a fairly good spot, But I would like jobs to be less about just building and spending into the 2 minutes, but I don't think that can be avoided I just think buffs need to be changed in a direction that makes them more interesting then "lol you press button once every two minutes"

Massively culling the 2 minute raid wide buffs would be one of the best things the combat will see. I do fear though that if any sort of temporary raid wide buff were to stay, it would still compel all jobs to try and make use of it and any jobs that don't fit in with that would be left out.

Generally, buffs that are permanent, like Bard's songs or DNC's Standard Step aren't an issue as they buff the whole rotation and not just the burst phase, so there is no ideal window you have to put everything in. This means jobs can be more fluid in how they operate.

It is a tough thing to look at as people will hate getting rid of the raid buffs as it creates that sense of working together, but at the same time, it can also cause issues. The trick will be to balance this fact and the problem currently is it is tipped too far one way.

Just because some of the job is different doesn't mean I can't point out the blatant similarities between jobs. Saying you can paint with a broader or narrower brush does not change the fact that some aspects are extremely similar.

Like saying MNK and NIN has different ways to build their gauge does not change the fact that all the things I mentioned function the same between both. But if you're going to nitpick that Trick Attack is a debuff and Riddle of Fire is a buff, then I cannot help you, I'll just say that I disagree that there's as much difference as you're seeing.

If every job has a 60 second and a 120, you cannot use it to differentiate the jobs. It is similar to me saying, every job has GCDs and oGCDs, therefore they are all the same. Obviously, that isn't a fair thing to say. Once jobs are able to have different timings on things, ie. the design for jobs change so that they don't fit the 60 second and 120 second windows, then you can start using them as a point to say, whilst this job bursts every 40 seconds, this one bursts at every 90 seconds etc. But a trait shared by all isn't something you can use to compare.

Also, technically, Trick Attack and RoF would have differences IF you had encounters that had multiple targets. Ninja can only trick one opponent, and thereby gain damage on that one, whereas Monk gains damage on all enemies due to it being a self buff. Unfortunately, again, encounter design makes this point pointless.