The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[AmiableApkallu]

Does complexity not disappear once you have a certain level of mastery in that job?

It does not. Complexity is an intrinsic quality of the design. Your level mastery does not change that.

That's like saying calculus ceases to be complex once you have a certain level of mastery in it. Calculus is intrinsically more complex than basic, elementary school arithmetic. "Mastering" calculus does not change that.

[Mikey_R]

It does not. Complexity is an intrinsic quality of the design. Your level mastery does not change that.

That's like saying calculus ceases to be complex once you have a certain level of mastery in it. Calculus is intrinsically more complex than basic, elementary school arithmetic. "Mastering" calculus does not change that.

What defines how complex something is though? What you consider complex, I might not and vice versa. So, is complexity something subjective or it is something we can objectively look at and if you can look at it objectively, what parameters are we using to define the level of complexity involved.

Whilst, yes, calculus is more complex than basic maths, we can both also agree that differentiating X^2 is vastly less complex than integrating ln(Sin[x^2]/Tan[Cos{X}]) or what other made up nonsense you can come up with that will be difficult to do. SO, where is the complexity line drawn?

[Zolvolt]

What defines how complex something is though? What you consider complex, I might not and vice versa. So, is complexity something subjective or it is something we can objectively look at and if you can look at it objectively, what parameters are we using to define the level of complexity involved.

Whilst, yes, calculus is more complex than basic maths, we can both also agree that differentiating X^2 is vastly less complex than integrating ln(Sin[x^2]/Tan[Cos{X}]) or what other made up nonsense you can come up with that will be difficult to do. SO, where is the complexity line drawn?

Complexity can be boiled down to how many things you need to juggle either simultaneously or back-to-back in most cases and in some cases having to play wildly different on a boss-by-boss basis. In FFXIV that ends up boiling down to snapshotting your dots and managing your job gauge. Micro optimizations add a hint to that, but they are generally nothing more than "hit abilities in this order instead" or "hold your cd and use it right before it comes off cd to get 2 uses back-to-back". The odd one will be like "you actually do more dps if you waste this amount of your gauge at this point" This game doesn't have complex systems either that require you to use different abilities or different cooldowns or play your job in a completely different way depending on the boss. World of warcraft is a good example of having that level of complexity in their job design with their current talent tree system, set bonuses, and trinkets. But it's also why that game's class balance is always so poor. There are always classes/specs that are shunned by the community because of this problem.

[AmiableApkallu]

Whilst, yes, calculus is more complex than basic maths, we can both also agree that differentiating X^2 is vastly less complex than integrating ln(Sin[x^2]/Tan[Cos{X}]) or what other made up nonsense you can come up with that will be difficult to do. SO, where is the complexity line drawn?

Complexity exists on a scale, a spectrum. There's generally broad agreement on the relative positions of things on this spectrum.

For the purposes of discussion, it's sometimes convenient to take a chunk of that spectrum and label it "simple", another chunk "complex", and so on. How that's done is more likely to vary from person to person.

[Mikey_R]

Complexity exists on a scale, a spectrum. There's generally broad agreement on the relative positions of things on this spectrum.

For the purposes of discussion, it's sometimes convenient to take a chunk of that spectrum and label it "simple", another chunk "complex", and so on. How that's done is more likely to vary from person to person.

I agree with this, however, to add on. Would you agree or disagree with the claim that after a person gains knowledge and or understanding on a subject, how complex they then perceive that subject could then change as a result and if so, would this shift it to be more simple, or, more complex.

[AmiableApkallu]

I agree with this, however, to add on. Would you agree or disagree with the claim that after a person gains knowledge and or understanding on a subject, how complex they then perceive that subject could then change as a result and if so, would this shift it to be more simple, or, more complex.

As someone gains knowledge of something, they may choose to reorder things on the complexity spectrum. Something that initially had the appearance of, say, "depth", might turn out to be quite shallow on further investigation, and vice versa.

Significantly relabeling which chunk of the spectrum is "simple" vs. "complex" is probably more akin to losing a sense of perspective.

[Aravell]

I agree with this, however, to add on. Would you agree or disagree with the claim that after a person gains knowledge and or understanding on a subject, how complex they then perceive that subject could then change as a result and if so, would this shift it to be more simple, or, more complex.

I think you're misunderstanding what people want. I don't think people want complexity that remains just as complex forever, because that's not possible. I think what people are looking for is complexity that grants repeatable engagement. Little things you can tweak here and there for each fight that makes you think, even after playing that job for years.

Things can remain engaging even after you build muscle memory of it after all.

[Silhart]

I think you're misunderstanding what people want. I don't think people want complexity that remains just as complex forever, because that's not possible. I think what people are looking for is complexity that grants repeatable engagement. Little things you can tweak here and there for each fight that makes you think, even after playing that job for years.

Things can remain engaging even after you build muscle memory of it after all.

Agreed with this 10000%. I'm not sure where people get this idea that complex gameplay suddenly stops becoming fun once you've mastered it. One of my favourite jobs in another MMORPG is one whose core rotation has not changed in 8 years, yet it's as enjoyable today as it was back then. Having different things to tweak for each fight definitely helps a lot, but honestly, sometimes just being able to play a job I took great effort to learn is reward enough for me. That job provides me with enough intrinsic enjoyment I could fight the same boss for years and never get bored.

I wish I could say the same for literally any of the jobs in FF14. I understand these massive job changes happen partly because the devs don't want people to get bored of doing the same rotation for years on end--I truly get it, but I wish they'd understand that killing off chunks of job gameplay I've grown to love is going to make me not want to play (see: MNKs and BLMs freaking out about possibly losing Optimal Drift and Non-Standard respectively). Of all the possible avenues for change, they happened upon the one that leaves us with less than what we had before. Thank you CBU3 very cool