The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[MagiusNecros]

They oversimplify the gameplay to draw in new players. The old guard is just the elephant in the room at this point. Shame they continually forget or disregard how they got this far.

[Rozeee]

"The mindset that the solution to every problem could be patched in a future update"

"8.0 will have more job identity"

Did they forgot?

[HyperiusUltima]

"8.0 will have more job identity"

Did they forgot?

I haven't forgotten them saying that. What I'd want is for them to address the elephant in the room(WAR) and then look at gearing jobs more towards individuality in some aspect. And sure, players will optimize the fun out of a game - we've seen that time and time again; but at the very least give people some expression with their job to feel as if they aren't the same as a WHM spamming Glare, or feel lesser than all the other tanks combined because Physical Damage is a sore spot for them(DRK).

I'm hoping they read into it hard with the 7.0 patch notes because I will be jumping on Early Access Day 1 on release.

[Rozeee]

I haven't forgotten them saying that. What I'd want is for them to address the elephant in the room(WAR) and then look at gearing jobs more towards individuality in some aspect. And sure, players will optimize the fun out of a game - we've seen that time and time again; but at the very least give people some expression with their job to feel as if they aren't the same as a WHM spamming Glare, or feel lesser than all the other tanks combined because Physical Damage is a sore spot for them(DRK).

I'm hoping they read into it hard with the 7.0 patch notes because I will be jumping on Early Access Day 1 on release.

Wasn't referring to you. I was referring to the devs forgetting the lessons they've learned from 2.0. By the time 8.0 comes out, I don't even know if I will still be playing the game. Them being this relaxed about it isn't helping.

[Oizen]

"8.0 will have more job identity"

Did they forgot?

I'm not convinced the developers even know what that means

[Reimmi]

"8.0 will have more job identity"

Did they forgot?

Gonna bookmark this for when they don't actually improve job identity and quadruple down on shb design in 8.0, and this was just a "please don't unsub" throwaway line

[Striker44]

They oversimplify the gameplay to draw in new players. The old guard is just the elephant in the room at this point. Shame they continually forget or disregard how they got this far.

Things like this (from the end of Page 1) tend to amuse me. They think the graphic that goes with it shows how SE has "lost their way", without realizing it actually just proves SE right.

Step 1 to Failure - An unhealthy obsession with graphic quality

We're up to 7.0 and the dev team is finally doing its first significant graphics upgrade. Definitely no such obsession there.

Lesson 1 - Never forget the fans / Lesson 2 - Fun comes first

Again, exactly what SE is doing. The game continues to have fan-service galore, and they recognize that their primary audience is casual players who don't want overly complicated systems, but rather something engaging that they can still just have fun with and not feel the need to be perfect or making the game their "job". (See Destiny 2 for a good example of what happens when a dev team listens to the loudest voices rather than the bulk of their playerbase.)

Lesson 4 - Don't forget your roots

FFXIV remains first and foremost an FF game. Meaning a primary focus on storytelling. What good is the story if only a select portion of the playerbase gets to actually experience all of it? The emphasis remains on storytelling rather than complex systems, borrowed power, endless grinds. Note: Not forgetting your roots != never changing anything about your game. If you don't evolve with the times, you get stuck in the past, and that will render you irrelevant quite quickly. Groups of any sort survive by staying true to their core, while simultaneously keeping up with changing times and constantly seeking new members.

[ty_taurus]

Again, exactly what SE is doing. The game continues to have fan-service galore, and they recognize that their primary audience is casual players who don't want overly complicated systems, but rather something engaging that they can still just have fun with and not feel the need to be perfect or making the game their "job". (See Destiny 2 for a good example of what happens when a dev team listens to the loudest voices rather than the bulk of their playerbase.)

Except no one has necessarily been asking for more simplification, nor are we suffering from an epidemic of casual players being walled by normal content because of job design. I see no reason to believe that the game would be any less loved by casual players if the level of complexity did not change from even Heavensward, which for the record is not what most people unhappy with job design are asking for anyway. Stormblood is. They never needed to be perfect or make this game their "job" to enjoy 95% of the game, and the 5% where they do, they still need to be good enough to clear anyway. What problem has this aggressive simplification solved? Were people leaving because the combat system was too complicated? Were players expressing disinterest in trying FFXIV because of the job design complexity of a past expansion specifically?

Show me receipts that this simplification has either prevented loss or generated gain--either of which must be entirely because of the simplification and not because of any other factor. You can't say "Endwalker has more players" because that is not why more people joined FFXIV, unless you can provide evidence to suggest otherwise.

Meanwhile the threshold of simplicity the players invested in this game's combat system are willing to accept has been crossed for a lot of people, and we have receipts of people over the years who have stopped playing FFXIV because of this simplification. This will only continue to bleed players as the simplification intensifies, and while that may not be a significant enough hemorrhage of players to actually hurt FFXIV, what value is it bringing to the game otherwise? Satisfying players who were already satisfied? Why is a happy medium too much to ask for?

[Valence]

Things like this (from the end of Page 1) tend to amuse me. They think the graphic that goes with it shows how SE has "lost their way", without realizing it actually just proves SE right.



We're up to 7.0 and the dev team is finally doing its first significant graphics upgrade. Definitely no such obsession there.



Again, exactly what SE is doing. The game continues to have fan-service galore, and they recognize that their primary audience is casual players who don't want overly complicated systems, but rather something engaging that they can still just have fun with and not feel the need to be perfect or making the game their "job". (See Destiny 2 for a good example of what happens when a dev team listens to the loudest voices rather than the bulk of their playerbase.)



FFXIV remains first and foremost an FF game. Meaning a primary focus on storytelling. What good is the story if only a select portion of the playerbase gets to actually experience all of it? The emphasis remains on storytelling rather than complex systems, borrowed power, endless grinds. Note: Not forgetting your roots != never changing anything about your game. If you don't evolve with the times, you get stuck in the past, and that will render you irrelevant quite quickly. Groups of any sort survive by staying true to their core, while simultaneously keeping up with changing times and constantly seeking new members.

Please pray tell, when was the casual playerbase unable to experience the whole story back in ARR/HW/SB? When was the casual playerbase overwhelmed by so called complex systems and when was it unable to have fun in storymodes, dungeons and alliance raids?

Or maybe are you actually telling us that there was just no casual playerbase back then?

[Sjol]

It's because the Development Team is scared of job complexity.

I very much doubt they're scared of complexity. Why would they be? You outlined the actual worry yourself -- a very reasonable fear that their job design will lock jobs out of prog content and the race for firsts.

Balancing jobs against fights is incredibly difficult at the extremes as shown by not just this game but other MMOs as well. The goal of making jobs feel different and jobs be balanced are at opposition. I don't envy the job designers who are having to do this.