Positionals

[rawker]

I don't see how positionals hinder any form of improvement to melee gameplay. If anything, it serves as a reward more than a necessity.

[CelestiCer]

I don't see how positionals hinder any form of improvement to melee gameplay. If anything, it serves as a reward more than a necessity.

It doesn't. Players just have a obsession to Optimize their own Fun away. Gotta optimize...

- Button Bloat, remove Job features
- Weaving issues, less APM
- Easier Movement, less Casts on new SMN
- Every shape slowly becomes a Circle AoE
- Positional Removal, True North can be deleted
- Remove margin for errors left-right-and-center
- Optimize Job balance, Screw your Fun
- Combo Compression and Auto Combo do it
- Remove Dots, its Archaic
- 2 min meta, everything lines up
- Gigantic Hitboxes, easier melee uptime
- Party buff radius increase, now you can't miss your Buffs
- Remove DPS variance, who cares about your random big numbers
- Streamline / Homogenize / Better / Cleaner
- More Optimal / Optimize / Optimize / Optimize

Reaching a point where I don't even understand what the end goal of it all was... so all Jobs can feel the same? We look at our skills, buffs, resources, they all seem to be so similar cause that's " Fun? ".

What's next, removal of Ranged Tax right? cause we don't have Melee Tax worth mentioning even with Positionals it's literal joke btw. My Iaijutsu is now Mc'Donalds Wifi reach coupled with SuperBowl stadium hitboxes, I can't freaking Miss. Rotation literally plays itself out and players want it even dumber... and then define that as " Fun "...

What is the argument... that we can't have both better Job-Gameplay, Positionals included, engaging content that isn't just copy pasted Dungeons / Fates / Mobs etc? and when that is given to us? then perhaps players consider something like Positional removal after Square gives us something back first... I don't see what hinders this. Development time? Square is hurting for money? I don't know. I had a lot more Fun before all these simplifications and streamlining. A lot less with more of it now and for some reason its not enough to some. We gotta dumb it down further mhm

[Sjol]

It doesn't. Players just have a obsession to Optimize their own Fun away. Gotta optimize...

- Button Bloat, remove Job features
- Weaving issues, less APM
- Easier Movement, less Casts on new SMN
- Every shape slowly becomes a Circle AoE
- Positional Removal, True North can be deleted
- Remove margin for errors left-right-and-center
- Optimize Job balance, Screw your Fun
- Combo Compression and Auto Combo do it
- Remove Dots, its Archaic
- 2 min meta, everything lines up
- Gigantic Hitboxes, easier melee uptime
- Party buff radius increase, now you can't miss your Buffs
- Remove DPS variance, who cares about your random big numbers

There are reasons for a lot of these. Nuanced reasons, even that aren't really getting addressed.

Button bloat has to do with human ergonomics and the limits of what fits on a keyboard. MMO mice are not a solution for everyone. Nor are controllers. I have ready access to 16 buttons with a single modifier, leaving 32 for the keyboard, plus another 2+2 for the mouse, for a total of 36. Beyond that I'm hunting for the thing with a mouse. Thirty-six buttons ought to be enough for any job, but there are plenty that require more than that.

Here are some baseline numbers:

Tanks (7 role + 4 general)
PLD: 27 job, 38 total.

Melee DPS (6 role + 4 general)
NIN: 26 job, 36 total.

Ranged Magical (5 role + 4 general)
BLM: 26 job, 35 total.

I would love to see a hard cap of 32 buttons needed for any job just for the human ergonomics. If you can't create meaningful jobs with 32 buttons, I don't know what they're doing. PvP manages to do it with under 12, and BLU hard-limits you to 24 job buttons.

Moreover, I think that what the jobs need is more uniqueness and less reliance on role-abilities and standards. That fact that all tanks get the same 9 abilities causes way more feeling of homogeneity than anything else.

And lastly, as an aside, I think the main argument against DOTs is that SE's implementation of them is broken. Higher Cast SPD should make them tick faster or do more damage or something, but they don't. I like DOTs, but the implementation needs work.

[Mikey_R]

Tanks (9 role + 4 general)
PLD: 27 job, 40 total.

Just to ask, what are you counting as 'General' actions and do they need to be easily accessed at all times?

Higher Cast SPD should make them tick faster or do more damage or something, but they don't.

More Skill/Spell Speed does increase DoT potency (which means more damage).

I do think there are some changes they could make to positionals that would make them more generally popular though:

1) Update the tooltips from:
"Delivers an attack with a potency of 300. 400 when execute from a target's rear." to:
"Delivers at attack of potency 300 (400 from target's rear)."

2) Add additional signals that you hit them (per many people's request).

3) Make it more intuitive if an attack is from behind or the flank. Right now, it's difficult to remember which attacks are flank and which are rear, especially if you change jobs a lot.

4) Reduce random boss turns. In a 2.5 second window, it feels bad to miss because you're on the wrong side of a boss turn.

5) Grant positional bonuses if you have threat or using some other mechanism when you're soloing.

1. I don't see how that changes anything. Wording on a tooltip isn't going to change whether someone likes or dislikes positionals or not.

2. Agreed, one example that does pop in my head is Monk's old positional on Bootshine, which auto crit from the rear. Very clear indicator there. Of course, you cannot make everything auto crit just from a positional.

3. How would you go about this?

4. This is where fight knowledge comes into play and used to be a much bigger factor in how good a melee DPS was. True North solves most of those issues now though.

5. Sure, if it really matters that much. Pretty sure most don't care that much about solo though and most content that has some degree of difficulty already has omni directional enemies anyway.

[Sjol]

Just to ask, what are you counting as 'General' actions and do they need to be easily accessed at all times?

Sprint, Limit Break, Duty Action 1, Duty Action 2

They don't need to be accessed at all times, but they need to be frequently accessed and have space reserved on the bar since they are time sensitive. LB is one of the ones I don't have on my bar but would like it to be.

[ZiraZ]

There are reasons for a lot of these. Nuanced reasons, even that aren't really getting addressed.

Button bloat has to do with human ergonomics and the limits of what fits on a keyboard. MMO mice are not a solution for everyone. Nor are controllers. I have ready access to 16 buttons with a single modifier, leaving 32 for the keyboard, plus another 2+2 for the mouse, for a total of 36. Beyond that I'm hunting for the thing with a mouse. Thirty-six buttons ought to be enough for any job, but there are plenty that require more than that.

Here are some baseline numbers:

Tanks (9 role + 4 general)
PLD: 27 job, 40 total.

Melee DPS (6 role + 6 general)
NIN: 26 job, 36 total.

Ranged Magical (5 role + 4 general)
BLM: 26 job, 35 total.

I would love to see a hard cap of 32 buttons needed for any job just for the human ergonomics. If you can't create meaningful jobs with 32 buttons, I don't know what they're doing. PvP manages to do it with under 12, and BLU hard-limits you to 24 job buttons.

Moreover, I think that what the jobs need is more uniqueness and less reliance on role-abilities and standards. That fact that all tanks get the same 9 abilities causes way more feeling of homogeneity than anything else.

And lastly, as an aside, I think the main argument against DOTs is that SE's implementation of them is broken. Higher Cast SPD should make them tick faster or do more damage or something, but they don't. I like DOTs, but the implementation needs work.

PLD doesn't have 40 keys with roles, pretty sure you're counting extra on all other jobs too
PVP gets it done well with so few keys because it's a fast paced minigame against players, it plays like absolute garbage anytime you are hitting something relatively immobile that won't fight back or respond to your actions in a non-script manner, you simply get bored in less than 15 seconds, so if anything it proves to me that you absolutely need a significant amount of keys to get past a healthy threshold of complexity in a slow paced scripted PvE setting.

BLU hard limit is unique because it needs to add difficulty with choices, has nothing to do with ergonomics, you don't want 1 blue to bring everything into a fight, additionally 80% of a functional blu kit is cooldown based abilities and I would absolutely not call it a ergonomic posted boy, I personally love the blu burst but a ton of people hate it since it's so APM intense and tight, you could play 2 SMNs at the same time you do a blu opener,
While I do think 32 keys is the perfect spot I don't have any issues with PLD and I still got room for a few more keys before I'm strapped and I do not think we should hard cap any of the regular jobs, they seem to be doing a great job right now (except SMN) .
It's specially perfect for jobs like DRG that need a great amount of oGCDs, not a single one is bloat no matter how many people who don't have a clue about the job like to parrot.

[Sjol]

PLD doesn't have 40 keys with roles, pretty sure you're counting extra on all other jobs too

While I do think 32 keys is the perfect spot I don't have any issues with PLD and I still got room for a few more keys before I'm strapped and I do not think we should hard cap any of the regular jobs, they seem to be doing a great job right now (except SMN).

You're right, I counted the tank roles jobs wrong. It's 7 instead of 9. I updated the original post. However, 38 is still a lot and I reconfirmed the totals for NIN and BLM.