Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[mallleable]

Doing EW leveling dungeons again, and I have to say, the damage output that occurs on those dungeons compared to max level or "Expert" dungeons is far better. To be fair, this is likely because the player doesn't have their entire Job kit yet and some players are under leveled in terms of gear, but there is a difference. And if I have to be honest, I am playing a BRD at the time and the healer (who was an AST) still spammed one button most of the time, but seeing him stop for a second or two and use more of his kit in mob pulls (and the bosses too to some extent) was refreshing to see.

"Expert" dungeons don't have a lot of incoming damage. There maybe some exceptions, but due to a lot of factors like gear and having your full kit, incoming damage just doesn't hit as hard. And don't get me started on the dungeon bosses. For God's sake, I have not seen a max level dungeon boss hit hard since "The Burn" back in Stormblood.

I get the feeling that "expert" dungeons are the way they are because they are designed to be easily, and painlessly farmed for tomes. While I don't think that "expert" dungeons should be incredibly difficult, I do think they should have a lot more bite to them, and not sacrifice gameplay for convenience.

[ForsakenRoe]

I get the feeling that "expert" dungeons are the way they are because they are designed to be easily, and painlessly farmed for tomes.

They never recovered from the Amdapor Keep 'Bees' incident I guess

[VentVanitas]

sacrificing gameplay for convenience is an apt way to describe EW expert dungeons. I can't even bear to THINK about Lunar Subteranne because of how dreadfully boring it is. I got tired of it way faster than I did with Ghimlyt Dark or Paglth'an. at least a handful of ShB expert dungeons had a spicy pull here and there, but almost everything past Dead Ends just folds with no resistance.

[currentlemon]

I get the feeling that "expert" dungeons are the way they are because they are designed to be easily, and painlessly farmed for tomes. While I don't think that "expert" dungeons should be incredibly difficult, I do think they should have a lot more bite to them, and not sacrifice gameplay for convenience.

I am in favor in making changes to the roulette system for max level dungeons. Currently, we have two max level dungeon roulettes: one that plays a random dungeon from previous patches and the “Expert” dungeon that plays the latest dungeon.

The change I am requesting is this:

1) Have a standard max level dungeon roulette work the way it is now but it potentially selects any of the max level dungeon. The player plays the dungeon at whatever item level / gear they have.

2) The “Expert” dungeon will play any max level dungeon at minimum item level. It’s not that much, but playing at minimum item level can make some difference. This new “Expert” roulette will also provide slightly better rewards for the players too.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I had an undergeared alt that I used sometime ago through all the expert dungeons saves Lunar Subterrane. None of the dungeons saves Dead Ends were even threatening, and that's an awfully low bar. There just isn't any bite to them.

and ofc dead ends also garnered most amount of hate by DF pugs

[Supersnow845]

Pretty much every expansion’s equivalent expert dungeons always had at least one standout either from a storytelling or an actual fun perspective but EW had nothing

ShB- hero’s gauntlet is arguably the best dungeon in the game from a storytelling perspective and its bosses are relatively interesting, both the anyder’s had interesting bosses and akademia is the most recent example of allowing us a triple pull, amurot also had a great visual storytelling and its bosses were dangerous

SB- the burn speaks for itself, the burn and holminster are the peak of dungeon design from a “fun perspective”, the ghimlyt dark was also a standout for its use of NPC’s without being intrusive

HW- we meme it for anima poetic hell but ARF is a genuinely well paced and interesting dungeon with a variety of pulls and mob design, sor khai also had strong boss design and the fracctal continuum was one of the few dungeons that let you freely pick pull size

ARR- Pharos Sirius is arguably the hardest dungeon ever on launch. Lost city and amdapor hard also had some great storytelling and mechanic interplay with their final bosses and the final trash stretch


EW has what………I mean dead ends isn’t terrible but dead ends is by far the best of the EW expert dungeons and it isn’t even good. Would we even agree on the second, they are all incredibly beige from a storytelling, mob and boss design. They are all just so thoroughly…..unmemorable

[currentlemon]

Pretty much every expansion’s equivalent expert dungeons always had at least one standout either from a storytelling or an actual fun perspective but EW had nothing

ShB- hero’s gauntlet is arguably the best dungeon in the game from a storytelling perspective and its bosses are relatively interesting, both the anyder’s had interesting bosses and akademia is the most recent example of allowing us a triple pull, amurot also had a great visual storytelling and its bosses were dangerous

SB- the burn speaks for itself, the burn and holminster are the peak of dungeon design from a “fun perspective”, the ghimlyt dark was also a standout for its use of NPC’s without being intrusive

HW- we meme it for anima poetic hell but ARF is a genuinely well paced and interesting dungeon with a variety of pulls and mob design, sor khai also had strong boss design and the fracctal continuum was one of the few dungeons that let you freely pick pull size

ARR- Pharos Sirius is arguably the hardest dungeon ever on launch. Lost city and amdapor hard also had some great storytelling and mechanic interplay with their final bosses and the final trash stretch


EW has what………I mean dead ends isn’t terrible but dead ends is by far the best of the EW expert dungeons and it isn’t even good. Would we even agree on the second, they are all incredibly beige from a storytelling, mob and boss design. They are all just so thoroughly…..unmemorable

The leveling dungeons were a lot more memorable than the max level dungeons I have played (I quit playing at 6.2, so I haven’t played all of EW’s dungeons yet).

[ForsakenRoe]

I think 'Expert Roulette' should just pick from any duty, that isn't tagged 'Extreme', 'Savage', 'Ultimate' or PVP related. Any Dungeon, any Trial, any Normal Raid, Alliance Raid, and yes, any Guildhest, all in the pool. People ragequit out because they didn't get a Guildhest, and the roulette run will take 20min instead of 3? That's what the '30min penalty for leaving mid-run' is for

A 'Minimum ILVL' Roulette could be interesting too

they are all incredibly beige from a storytelling, mob and boss design. They are all just so thoroughly…..unmemorable

Storytelling-wise, Dead Ends is cool IMO. Theme/appearance-wise, I also like Smileton's non-euclidean geometry, Ktisis' separate 'Minecraft Biome' structure, and Aitascope because 'haha remember funny Garlean shield man'. As far as actually 'play through the dungeon', the only one that comes to mind from EW that is 'actually hits hard enough to justify the addition of Bloodwhetting' is one particular pull in Vanaspati. Aitascope would be up there, but you get the crazy 'power of nostalgia' effects from Moenbryda/Haurchefant so they get downgraded to 'this is ez mode' pulls

EX dungeons have all been undeniably 'pushover' tier, each and every one. But that might be because we can go in with Savage gear, and be 60 ILVL higher than the 'SE-mandated minimum'. So maybe SE needs to look into clamping the ILVL swing possible in the dungeons a bit harder

[SeverianLyonesse]

The leveling dungeons were a lot more memorable than the max level dungeons I have played (I quit playing at 6.2, so I haven’t played all of EW’s dungeons yet).

I do think the comparisons are a tad unfair given that HW and SB also had a bunch "hard" dungeon variants that were quite underwhelming.

I don't think EW is *that* bad. I do agree that the wrap-up dungeons were pretty weak, but that is largely due to the second half of the story existing in these vague spaaaaaaace areas with very little to ground their story: Aitiascope, Dead Ends, Smileton, Stigma Dreamscape. They all had a conceptual setting, but that mostly felt like window-dressing and didn't feel as well-connected to the world the story is taking place in. However, I do think that both the leveling dungeons and patch dungeons are much stronger for being more grounded in more finite worldbuilding. Tower of Zot, Tower of Babil, and Vanaspati all logically relate back to and expand on Thavnair, Garlemald, and the moon towers. Fell Court, Lapis Manalis, and Lunar Subterrane all relate back to the history of the Thirteenth. Those were much better experiences, imo.

In sum, I think Endwalker's weakness was just getting far too abstracted and up its behind about this whole Endsinger/Ultima Thule business for too long. I think the expansion would have fared much better if it had broken down the act structure to spend all but the final act in Elpis/Space, and more time in Ilsabard/Sharlayan. Instead of the 50/50 split we got. Honestly I think Elpis should have just been an instance and not a full map, with the freed up map dedicated to fleshing out Garlemald. Elpis adds so little to the world map and ended up forcing a rush through Garlemald and a bloating of the second half of the story; the dungeon would have faired better as a patch dungeon than this weird time travel sidetracking business.

[mallleable]

I think it would be great it if the devs pushed themselves a bit more with with dungeon design instead of just defaulting to the usual formulas. I think the bullet hell hallway from The Puppet's Bunker is one of the best unconventional trash "pulls" in the game, and we need more weird trash pulls like it.