Compiled SAM threads against 6.1 changes / Kaiten removal

[Wyssahtyn]

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...6e9035c4dfc201

job action trailer on the 16th.

remember how they said they were removing kaiten back in 6.1 because they were reworking sam for dt or because it was hard to design around or something like that?

can't wait for them to show off the same dogwater design they've been following since shb

[Supersnow845]

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...6e9035c4dfc201

job action trailer on the 16th.

remember how they said they were removing kaiten back in 6.1 because they were reworking sam for dt or because it was hard to design around or something like that?

can't wait for them to show off the same dogwater design they've been following since shb

That was DRG, SAM they deleted Kaiten because they considered it a redundant button because you always pressed it before iiajutsu

It was never part of a wider SAM rework

[Wyssahtyn]

That was DRG, SAM they deleted Kaiten because they considered it a redundant button because you always pressed it before iiajutsu

It was never part of a wider SAM rework

was it not one of the reasons they spouted off around when they announced the decision? "action bloat" > "button bloat" > "too hard to design around so we're axing it now so you can get better™ job design in the future" > another reason that i can't remember right now

[Supersnow845]

was it not one of the reasons they spouted off around when they announced the decision? "action bloat" > "button bloat" > "too hard to design around so we're axing it now so you can get better™ job design in the future" > another reason that i can't remember right now

So their quoted reason for the removal for Kaiten is the fact that it was action bloat specifically not button bloat (ie the SB dark arts problem), however this was not an indication that the wider SAM was becoming too hard to build around

The negative reception to the Kaiten removal was their justification for why they delayed the DRG and AST reworks, two jobs they actually do thing are excessively rigid and bloated

They never mentioned it was excessively restrictive on the kenki system especially since kenki with Kaiten is basically just “the gauge minimum is 25”, they do seem to have no idea where the kenki system is going but it was never a factor

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

So their quoted reason for the removal for Kaiten is the fact that it was action bloat specifically not button bloat (ie the SB dark arts problem), however this was not an indication that the wider SAM was becoming too hard to build around

It's actually a little bit different from how I understand it. Dark Arts, while spammy, actually had more than one button you wanted to use it on. It basically was Kaiten and Shinten in one in the sense of how often you used it (Shinten) and the amount of buttons it had interactions with (Kaiten) and it was often more than just "+140 potency".

Sometimes it was a lot more damage (Carve and Spit), sometimes it granted bonus enmity (Power Slash, Plunge), an AOE blind (Dark Passenger), no bonus damage but lifesteal (Abyssal Drain) and so on. You also had TBN alternatively for MP usage, which granted 50 Blood. That then fed into various Bloodskills, two of which had interaction with MP (Quietus) and buff extension (Delirium). While DRK MP and SAM Kenki are both static gauges in this aspect, DRK had much wider application. Arguably the only thing that needed fixing was the frequency (increase potency gain and MP cost by +50%).

Kaiten, while I totally get why people miss it, realistically only had one button using it for, namely Iaijutsu (I am unsure if Ogi Namikiri 1st step could also be Kaitened, been a while). You never lacked Kenki for it (thus you use it on 100% of your Iaijutsu casts without fail) and it surpassed the potency gain of other GCD actions. And if you had Kenki overflowing, Shinten/Kyuten did more.

While actually tone-deaf in the larger picture of action bloat / APM bloat (Shinten having more casts in general, 25 gauge cost on Senei/Guren i.e. more Shinten) and also button bloat (Shoha II, Ogi Namikiri not folded behind Ikishoten), there "is" logic behind the removal, even if many don't like it - it was an arbitrary, 100% of all times button press before every Iaijutsu for optimal damage. It was satisfying for muscle memory and big numbers (I'd know, I miss Dark Arts), but the application for Kaiten was one-dimensional.

@everyone: Please do not start ripping me apart for giving my take (again) on Kaiten. I may not have mained it, but I mained something with a similar function, so I thought it was ok to give my opinion on this.