Red Mage: I am not a Back line class

[Suneater]

You want to melee as RDM but how are the devs supposed to balance this? If RDM wears cloth armor, they die in 2 hits. If RDM wears leather armor, they have no mage stats or are forced into JSE/AF only. What kind of WS are they supposed to get? If their WS do more than PLD, then PLD will complain about how they have less hate management tools than RDM (getting out-cured and out WSed by a mage). At least then the forums will have something new to complain about I guess.

Jack-of-all-trades classes don't work in MMOs because they are second-rate at everything that they do and are shoehorned into only using their unique skills. I'd rather see a pure enfeebling magic/dark magic mage than XI's red mages again.

[Jinko]

Right, because forcing an entire job to drag around 4 sets of unique gear sounds smart. Let's not even discuss itemization of RDM specific gear, or point allotment.

That's why you pick one play style and maximize it, If I play an elemental Shaman in WoW, I'm not expected to drag around gear suitable to melee or healing and nobody forces that on me either.

RDM would be more than pointless given this setup. What you're talking about isn't a true hybrid anymore, but a hybrid in the way that Blizzard likes to define the term. A class that can respec to any role.

And what is wrong with adding choice for different play styles ?

Unless RDM is better than one of those, in which case, why not just bring 8 RDM

For the same reason you don't take 4 Shamans into an instance or dungeon in WoW, you balance them to be comparable to other classes.

Of course SE can't even balance Paladin properly so I guess it's not a such a great idea after all.

It would never be able to outright replace the main tank, main healer, or primary DPS, but it would be able to replace an off tank or off healer in a group transitioning from clearing to farming, or replace a DPS in a group just learning an instance.

With the ability to switch classes at any time you can do this anyway.

Not that it would be entirely useless for other situations, it would just be outclassed by other jobs that can permanently inhabit a single role. But I'd be willing to pay that price for the versatility expected of RDM.

As I said with 8 people the need for a jack of all trades becomes less, and even less when you start talking about alliance content, there is no point taking a class that is average when you can take a class which has a specific role.

You want to melee as RDM but how are the devs supposed to balance this? If RDM wears cloth armor, they die in 2 hits,If RDM wears leather armor, they have no mage stats or are forced into JSE/AF only.

You are seriously overestimating the stat system in this game, some PGL gear for example is cloth.

They have mentioned adding class speicfic gear in the future, leather gear with mage stats could be one such example.

What kind of WS are they supposed to get? If their WS do more than PLD, then PLD will complain about how they have less hate management tools than RDM (getting out-cured and out WSed by a mage). At least then the forums will have something new to complain about I guess.

Why would they complain, the role of a Paladin is meant to be a tank not a damage dealer, I don't see them complaining that they can't compete with DRGs, MNKs and BLMs.

[Wycor]

Jack-of-all-trades classes don't work in MMOs because they are second-rate at everything that they do and are shoehorned into only using their unique skills. I'd rather see a pure enfeebling magic/dark magic mage than XI's red mages again.

Wait. No, wait. Wait wait wait.

Are you complaining why a job would be a "second rate at everything" and only count on their unique skills? Are you actually playing? Seriously? Can you tell me the difference between what you said and: Bard, warrior, monk, whitemage, black mage dragoon and paladin? Aren't those jobs used only becasuse of it's "unique skills" while they are mediocre?

Seriously what the...

[Suneater]

Wait. No, wait. Wait wait wait.

Are you complaining why a job would be a "second rate at everything" and only count on their unique skills? Are you actually playing? Seriously? Can you tell me the difference between what you said and: Bard, warrior, monk, whitemage, black mage dragoon and paladin? Aren't those jobs used only becasuse of it's "unique skills" while they are mediocre?

Seriously what the...

Bard, Warrior, Monk, White Mage, Black Mage, Dragoon, and Paladin are jack-of-all-trades and classes now? Are YOU actually playing?

[Gukie]

Redmade are suppose to be support job not melle not casters not healers ------------------

Support job are job's that cast buff's debuffs and offensive spell when needed or defensive spell when needed*

Hence you do you have to cast cure nukes bind gravity ----- refresh* and of course you are welcome to melle or use a bow --- but remember you'll run out of MP------

To fix that problem you re technically telling se to give you 500 mp per tick just so you can attack ----

I guess you want a Mage that uses no mp and only TP---- that would not make it a mage if you use tp though-

to fix that problem se should allow REDMAGE to be engaged and recover mp at the same rate a whitemage and blackmage recover mp while not active--- but of course to support that------ so th job isnt over powered-

cure should only be cure 1---- and nukes should only be tier 1 nukes as well--- That of course would make a redmage weak though---- if he or she decides to be a redmage nuker still- hence would suck for the players who wants to nuke as rdm and buff debuff.

[Elgeron]

RDM was anything but inefficient in FFXI. But furthermore, RDM is a third part these things, because that's what Red Mage is. Final Fantasy has an established job system, Red Mage has never varied wildly from its roots in this regard. FFXI was perhaps the biggest departure for the job.

Not to say that innovation is bad, but people expect something specific from a Red Mage, their love and attachment to the job is based around these expectations. Hence this thread, and half the people posting in it.

But last time SE tried to wildly depart from the expected job system... well look what happened.

I understand your point, but one of the reason that make the last system fails was because it hasn´t enough specialitation, CON and THM were, infact, like red mages. And a lot of the DoW were pretty similar gameplay wise. Job brought two things, the nostalgia factor and specialitation.

And, please, correct me if I´m wrong, but the original concept of RDM fail in FFXI, forcing players to use it as a healer, wich almost surpass WHM. Besides, you can already play as RDM using classes, and it is an interesting combination, specially for solo or small parties wich want to have fun.

Futhermore, you said that the FFXI´s RDM was "perhaps the biggest departure for the job".Maybe that means that the original concept have problems, and the biggest one was that, at the beggining it was one of the most usefful classes, but in the long run it lost efectivity, and only making changes it really start to function well.

We need more magic jobs and more variety. If RDM isn´t change, is better in my opinion if they implement a totally different and new job.

And believe me, saying this isn´t easy for me. Red mage is probably my favourite job. I started as CON just because it reminds me of RDM reading the description

[Gukie]

[QUOTE=Jinko;645295]It would never be able to outright replace the main tank, main healer, or primary DPS, but it would be able to replace an off tank or off healer in a group transitioning from clearing to farming, or replace a DPS in a group just learning an instance.

actually I was able to tank Ifrit on Conjurer/whitemage so why can't a redmage do it. lol...
The problem here is monster hit's and does the same dammage no mater what gear you wear--- the problem here is the dammage of a monster is sooo powerfull your deffense doesnt even mater-----
se need's to change that--- make hp less usefull and deffense more usefull----
hence they need to make it so 1 deffense monster(Bosses) hits for 9999 while 100 deffense a monster no mater how powerfull they are get's there dammage reduced by 25% at 200 50% at 300 60% at 400 70% at 500 75% at 600 80%----- that would mean if you had 600 deffense-- (Glad Gear only/ marauder cant wear these type of gear) you would get hit for 1999.8 by Ifrit-

while if you are at 500 marauder gear 75% Ifrit would hit you for 2499.05 dammage on average----



And what is wrong with adding choice for different play styles ?



For the same reason you don't take 4 Shamans into an instance or dungeon in WoW, you balance them to be comparable to other classes.

Of course SE can't even balance Paladin properly so I guess it's not a such a great idea after all.

[Arcell]

No that's what FF 11 thought rdm should be, rdm has never really been Debuffer it just had a little of everything. Some folks need to remember that FF 11 is not the whole FF Franchise.

^this. 1000x this.

So RDM being a jack of all trades, it would get some melee skills (likely with status effects) and a little of both support and offensive magic. Red Mages have traditionally used swords but Gladiator is already the 1-handed sword class. However Red Mages have also been known to use Rapiers so that would make Fencer the class (since class = weapon) which leads to Red Mage as the Job.

Now Rapiers are a little different from Gladiator swords, they would be used without a shield and thus would be able to parry. Parry should be a form of light damage mitigation for Red Mage so that it can stand on the front lines, in the same way evade helps Monks stay in the front lines longer. To balance it against WAR's parry ability, RDM would obviously have much less health so it would not be able to take Warrior's spot as a parry tank. Also they could link some conditional skills to parry.

Throw in CNJ/THM as their cross-class, give them Dualcast/Fast Cast as their 15 min and throw in some job exclusive en- spells.

[SwordCoheir]

Redmade are suppose to be support job not melle not casters not healers ------------------

Support job are job's that cast buff's debuffs and offensive spell when needed or defensive spell when needed*

Hence you do you have to cast cure nukes bind gravity ----- refresh* and of course you are welcome to melle or use a bow --- but remember you'll run out of MP------

To fix that problem you re technically telling se to give you 500 mp per tick just so you can attack ----

I guess you want a Mage that uses no mp and only TP---- that would not make it a mage if you use tp though-

to fix that problem se should allow REDMAGE to be engaged and recover mp at the same rate a whitemage and blackmage recover mp while not active--- but of course to support that------ so th job isnt over powered-

cure should only be cure 1---- and nukes should only be tier 1 nukes as well--- That of course would make a redmage weak though---- if he or she decides to be a redmage nuker still- hence would suck for the players who wants to nuke as rdm and buff debuff.

I very much doubt SE will change the game mechanics to make one or two exceptions just to make one job work Gukie. Frankly I think the MP limitations from being engaged would be one of those things that could keep RDM from being OP, but unless it's magic / support abilities are somewhat tied into their physical offense we'll likely see a repeat of the backline Red Mage just because we'll have a slew of RDM's who can't manage MP effectively.

And before people say "That's what Refresh is for", I've been specifically avoiding the spell in my ideas because it specifically turned against RDM in FFXI. Despite what people think the developers originally intended for Refresh supplement Red Mage's ability to be in the front lines without stopping to heal every battle. Things didn't go as intended, people found the hidden effect of elemental staves, series of other unfortunate events, BAM RDM was cemented in backline position. Of course since only a few jobs actually utilize mp, it might not be so detrimental (especially if it's AoE) so it might not be so bad. But if then again it might enforce BLM stacking with Ballad / Refresh giving insane MP regeneration. So for now I'd much rather avoid "Refresh" outside a self-buff only, trait, or find ways to restore MP through other means like Runic Blade / Aspir.

Futhermore, you said that the FFXI´s RDM was "perhaps the biggest departure for the job".Maybe that means that the original concept have problems, and the biggest one was that, at the beggining it was one of the most usefful classes, but in the long run it lost efectivity, and only making changes it really start to function well.

Actually the original concept had little problems, it was the overall design of the game that made it difficult for RDM to actually play as it's original concept. SE improved on newer hybrid jobs like BLU and DNC by tieing their ability to function as a mage within their melee, however RDM was so pigeonholed into the backline position for so long and to make it comply within it's concept would require the job to be entirely rebuilt a 2nd time and perhaps rebuild the magic system altogether, SE just said it wasn't worth fixing at that point.

[Zantetsuken]

They could always build on the Sword Mage / Rune-knight idea and make RDM an elemental/enfeebling Melee attacker..

A melee mage that focuses on En~, and Spike Spells.

• En-Fire (Stacks to add DoT)
• En-Thunder (Stacks to add Stun effect)
• En-Blizzard (Stacks to add Paralyze effect)
• En-Drain (Stacks to add Gravity effect)
• Earth Spikes (Reduces damage taken, and causes Slow to attacker)
• Wind Spikes (Increased spell resist, random Blink effect)
• Bubble (Double Max HP for a short time)
• Haste (self)