Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

[Sqwall]

Available mitigation dictates how outgoing damage gets tuned, not the reverse, since all tank combinations need to be able to clear content. Discrepancies limit your ability to create challenging mitigation checks. As an example, if you release a big physical damage raidwide like HH in P10S, you have to still design to allow a DRK/GNB composition to clear on week 1, knowing that they will only have access to Reprisal. That in turn results in a softer check for a WAR/PLD setup, whereas a level playing field would naturally result in tighter checks across the board. The end result of all those supposedly 'little' advantages result in WAR having a smoother ride under all conditions.

I'm all for tanks having their unique strengths and weaknesses, but I don't really see a lot of give and take in that regard. When is WAR supposed to be at a disadvantage?

I think what needs to happen is that they need to get fresh eyes to look at the tanks from the ground up and re-evaluate how they can make a fair playing field for all involved. I think that there's a belief amongst the dev team that if they at least make WAR artificially popular, they can make people want to tank. This is shortsighted and will drive players away from tanking in the long run, simply because even non-tanks are recognizing and openly talking about the bias now. Nobody wants to invest in a role where they're forced to play a specific job to have the maximum advantages.

Hence, why I have been saying from the get go. SAVAGE/ULTIMATE IS HOW THEY BALANCE JOBS. Not the other way around. If they change something like Bloodwhetting for dungeons to be weaker...then WAR will be at a disadvantage in savage/ultimate. Which in turn with the logic of this thread....just nerf all the tanks to WAR's level...*wipe hands* there done. Now all the tanks are at a disadvantage....

Oh but Shake is to strong...better lower that too...once again...WAR is at a disadvantage. Community of WAR tanks now in an uproar...dev team nerfs the other tanks to keep the tanks balanced again...because WAR is to strong.

Now the community is happy. WAR isn't a god in dungeons anymore....and it isn't used in savage at all because it's the worst of all the tanks. It can do damage...but can't stay alive.

Yeah...that seems smart.

I agree with you that if this is going to be "fixed" then they need look at it with fresh eyes.

My opinion start with the content itself, that would be the least depressing route as NOBODY likes nerfs. Because I guarantee you in 6 months time...it will be reverted back to the way it was due to community outcry and not understanding what they are asking at the time by just nerfing the tanks.

But the current state of the tanks....is perfectly fine within savage. Because they are tuned for savage. Dungeons....if that's your thing to just only run them....yeah it must be pretty boring...but I would argue they are boring on ANY job....so I don't know what to tell you.

[Supersnow845]

Again for the 8301959106106@3&2th time a 1600 potency heal every 25 seconds, a 1500 potency heal on top of that every 60, an oGCD shield stronger than any healer oGCD shield that also gets a heal and a regen and a single target heal amplifier that works on your own heals is not “balanced in savage” it’s just not so hilariously broken that it’s causing as much of an outcry as the casual equivalent

At this point single target healing on the healers is downright useless, I can take tetra, bension and aquaveil off my bar and basically nothing about how WHM plays in savage changes, same for lustrate, excog, ED, CI and exaltation

SIO and holmgang are too powerful collectively, SIO is literally the best mitigation and is the only one that has 2 extra effects, self healing on WAR (and PLD) is too strong that it’s warping the healers kits, it’s not balanced from any other perspective than tank mains wanting to be overpowered

[aiqa]

snip

There are easy ways to avoid harsh nerfs against bosses, while still limiting healing against big groups. Those ideas have already been posted, numerous times. And there already is community outcry right now, which is selectively ignored. In dugeons a WAR does higher HPS than healers, while still doing their tank role and higher damage. That is not acceptable.

[Lyth]

It's relatively easy to retune an ability like Bloodwhetting such that it only affects dungeon performance. We've talked about this before. By the action tooltip, you would expect the healing on Bloodwhetting to only apply once per weaponskill. This is in the same vein as Raw Intuition historically guaranteeing critical heals when your healer was flank or rear, when it was intended as a drawback for incoming damage in Heavensward. They should have fixed it immediately, but they let it sit for the entire expansion just because it had a favorable short-term response.

I think that you're being shortsighted here in the name of preserving your territory. The current approaches to self-sustain that WAR uses are low effort and low skill, and reflect poorly on the current state of tanking. You can easily revise these systems to make self-sustain more challenging, as it once was. Soloing bosses on WAR was once considered to be skillful. Nobody bats an eyelid at it anymore. It comes down to making self-sustain less available and more timing dependent.

It's also about giving every tank unique advantages and disadvantages. You can say that actions like Vengeance being unconditionally better than their equivalents are minor, but they stick out to players and add to the general perception of developer bias. I think you'll gain more by thinking about how to improve the overall state of tanking, rather than seeking to further your personal benefit on your preferred job.

I also think that pushback against WAR nerfs will be irrelevant in the long run if they put their minds to it. If the dev team commit to a change, then it really doesn't matter how many hundreds of threads you make on the subject - we've seen an example of this already this expansion. They just need to bite the bullet and do it, and they'll improve support gameplay tremendously by restoring fairness.

[Zairava]

Hence, why I have been saying from the get go. SAVAGE/ULTIMATE IS HOW THEY BALANCE JOBS. Not the other way around. If they change something like Bloodwhetting for dungeons to be weaker...then WAR will be at a disadvantage in savage/ultimate. Which in turn with the logic of this thread....just nerf all the tanks to WAR's level...*wipe hands* there done. Now all the tanks are at a disadvantage....

Oh but Shake is to strong...better lower that too...once again...WAR is at a disadvantage. Community of WAR tanks now in an uproar...dev team nerfs the other tanks to keep the tanks balanced again...because WAR is to strong.

Now the community is happy. WAR isn't a god in dungeons anymore....and it isn't used in savage at all because it's the worst of all the tanks. It can do damage...but can't stay alive.

Yeah...that seems smart.

I agree with you that if this is going to be "fixed" then they need look at it with fresh eyes.

My opinion start with the content itself, that would be the least depressing route as NOBODY likes nerfs. Because I guarantee you in 6 months time...it will be reverted back to the way it was due to community outcry and not understanding what they are asking at the time by just nerfing the tanks.

But the current state of the tanks....is perfectly fine within savage. Because they are tuned for savage. Dungeons....if that's your thing to just only run them....yeah it must be pretty boring...but I would argue they are boring on ANY job....so I don't know what to tell you.

This is starting to get infuriating.

There is NO FUNCTIONAL DIFFERENCE if Bloodwhetting is made to only heal once per GCD in both single target and aoe. Shake it off could have the healing removed entirely and is still better than both Dark Missionary and Heart of Light, and only removing the HoT equalizes it with current Divine Veil.

You would rather sacrifice the collective peoples' enjoyment just so you can continue to do the healers role for them with way more sustainability than a tank should have. You have zero reason to have such strong healing on a tank so often with no drawbacks.

Quite frankly, the part where they only think about week 1/2 savage balance is a part of the issue because they just blindly ignore the other 95% of content most of the playerbase actually interacts with on a more constant basis.

Cry all you want, if and when you Warrior mains receive your justifiable nerfs I look forward to all the salt in the tank forums.

[ASkellington]

Hence, why I have been saying from the get go. SAVAGE/ULTIMATE IS HOW THEY BALANCE JOBS. Not the other way around. If they change something like Bloodwhetting for dungeons to be weaker...then WAR will be at a disadvantage in savage/ultimate.

Please do us all a favor and explain the logic of how nerfing the heal WAR gets on MULTIPLE TARGETS and leaving the single target healing that you're ranting about making WAR weak in Savage/Ultimate ALONE puts WAR at a disadvantage in said content? We're literally targeting the dungeon healing and nothing else.

What is sounds like to me is you aren't reading the complaints properly and that you don't give a crap about how balance affects the entire game outside of your role.

[Sqwall]

Please do us all a favor and explain the logic of how nerfing the heal WAR gets on MULTIPLE TARGETS and leaving the single target healing that you're ranting about making WAR weak in Savage/Ultimate ALONE puts WAR at a disadvantage in said content? We're literally targeting the dungeon healing and nothing else.

What is sounds like to me is you aren't reading the complaints properly and that you don't give a crap about how balance affects the entire game outside of your role.

Because I don't see bloodwhetting in a dungeon environment as a gauge of the ENTIRE game. I have mentioned before "yes it is broken in dungeons" "It would do well to have a drop off heal per target". I don't see this as a nerf as it DOESN'T AFFECT SAVAGE.

I feel that you are confusing the fact that I don't give two shits about dungeon content...I don't see dungeons as a gauge for how a job is SUPPOSED to operate at high level. Where it matters.

Can a WAR solo a dungeon boss....yes. I have also done this on PLD. And GNB.....and DRK. Hell I have done this on MNK. ....you want to know how? BECAUSE IT'S A DUNGEON BOSS!

From what I gather from your comments is that you want 100% of the game balanced at ALL times....no exceptions. And any outliers should be ground into the dirt. Good luck with that. And we wonder why we have homogenization in the game....it's because people want EVERYTHING to balanced to a razor thin margin....and they bitch and moan when it's .0003% off from the lowest and highest in the tank category.

How hard is that to understand?

So yeah...I feel like I want the tanks to stay just the way that they are because to me...this is a compromise. What we have now is the most balanced they have ever been given each tanks respective strengths and weaknesses.

Where I have an issue is when people that want to take an inch.....then take a mile with this whole furthermore way of addressing the tanks. I argue...where does it end? Until all the tanks mitigation is the lowest is has ever been and we have nothing to address incoming damage? That healers would "god forbid" stop DPSing to heal us?

You change something from the tanks....you change something from the healers....and so on.

I feel nobody will be satisfied until WAR is ground into the dirt so that they can have some personal gratification of "There, that's better" mentality. Then like always the "mob" shifts it's gaze to the other tanks and wring their hands..."Now who's next?"

So....continue to use NORMAL content as a gauge for the entire game and decide what is to strong and what is weak.

Let the nerfing begin....hope healers can keep up.

[Zairava]

Because I don't see bloodwhetting in a dungeon environment as a gauge of the ENTIRE game. I have mentioned before "yes it is broken in dungeons" "It would do well to have a drop off heal per target". I don't see this as a nerf as it DOESN'T AFFECT SAVAGE.

I feel that you are confusing the fact that I don't give two shits about dungeon content...I don't see dungeons as a gauge for how a job is SUPPOSED to operate at high level. Where it matters.



From what I gather from your comments is that you want 100% of the game balanced at ALL times....no exceptions. And any outliers should be ground into the dirt. Good luck with that. And we wonder why we have homogenization in the game....it's because people want EVERYTHING to balanced to a razor thin margin....and they bitch and moan when it's .0003% off from the lowest and highest in the tank category.

How hard is that to understand?

So yeah...I feel like I want the tanks to stay just the way that they are because to me...this is a compromise. What we have now is the most balanced they have ever been given each tanks respective strengths and weaknesses.

Where I have an issue is when people that want to take an inch.....then take a mile with this whole furthermore way of addressing the tanks. I argue...where does it end? Until all the tanks mitigation is the lowest is has ever been and we have nothing to address incoming damage? That healers would "god forbid" stop DPSing to heal us?

You change something from the tanks....you change something from the healers....and so on.

I feel nobody will be satisfied until WAR is ground into the dirt so that they can have some personal gratification of "There, that's better" mentality. Then like always the "mob" shifts it's gaze to the other tanks and wring their hands..."Now who's next?"

Rinse repeat.

This is the most ironic nonsense coming from the same people who complained about Warrior dps until they caved and gave you the damage.

I want you to explain just what weakness Warrior has right now. Like, this isn't a small margin.

-You have the best invuln
-You have, by far, the most sustainability
-You have shields and by far the most potent raid utility of the tanks

It used to be you had all this in exchange for having lower dps, but that drawback is here no longer. Paladin at least has to sacrifice GCD's to cast clemency. So tell me. What weakness do you have?

So....continue to use NORMAL content as a gauge for the entire game and decide what is to strong and what is weak.

Let the nerfing begin....hope healers can keep up.

You're the same person who suggested they ramp up the damage in mob packs in regards to Warrior being immortal in dungeons because you actively refuse to see making Bloodwhetting one heal per GCD or percentage of damage dealt as viable solutions, so this isn't the sudden retaliation you think it is. Especially when our suggestions don't include neutering our kits, only toning them down.

[Zairava]

This is all without even stating that DRK has way less survivability (thanks to low to no self-healing) than WAR has currently, tieing with the weakest raid-wide defensive with Gunbreaker (Dark Missionary/Heart of Light). And guess what? The comps they've been in performed just fine this entire expansion without having access to as potent party utility as WAR/PLD.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Please wake me up when certain individuals figure out that you can gauge for and make balance changes to both normal/dungeon and high-end content at the same time without making either functionally useless.

I'm just amazed at this point.