Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

[Kabooa]

But the real issue everyone is having is that bloodwhetting in dungeons is just flat out broken. So like I mentioned before...in order to "fix" this SE can do 1 of 2 things....or 2 things idk.

The real issue I'm having is that tanks shouldn't have as much healing as they do, and double that as healing they can give to other party members.

Shake it off didn't need a heal component or a HoT component. Neither did Divine Veil.

Bloodwhetting doesn't need target scaling.

Raw healing has to be taken down on the classes that take the least amount of damage. Replace it with something else. In fact, they already did replace it with something else while not reducing the healing, and it's that tanks were given a significant damage boost over healers when in Shadowbringers they were mostly even, edging in favor of the healers in heavily optimized parties.

Edit: And since Snow asked this but no one really answered him, the reason it happened is that, surprise, tanks !@#%ed. How dare the other, lesser support role do as much / slightly more damage than them in heavily optimized runs?

The only reason mono-tank isn't meta is that there are simply DPS checks they cannot reach or role checks in very few encounters they cannot deal with, and even then, you just replace other tanks with warriors and you can probably deal with it.

[Sqwall]

I mean yeah I agree, BW is fine in single Target. I'd say Nascent Flash is where the balance gets iffy in that content.
But in the context of both I don't see why we coulnd't just move BW to healing per GCD rather than per target, it be a lot more manageable overall and have no impact on higher raiding.
I've said this multiple times but I don't think its possible to balance around Bloodwhetting in AOE at all. The ammount of shit you'd have to throw into the mix to justify its heal output is nonsensical, you'd also basically be forced to give GNB, DRK and PLD their own bloodhwettings which isn't something anyone wants to see.

Personally I expect nothing to change because this game only ever balances around Week 1 Savage SPECIFICALLY and all other forms of content regardless of difficulty is intentionally discarded, but I really don't view this as ideal.

I would be fine with that. Bloodwhetting doesn't need a nerf with it's healing values, or mitigation, or CD. I just needs tweaked for dungeons to be more "fair" where it lines up with the other tanks better.

Bloodwhetting in a dungeon setting is an outlier. It's throwing everything else off by a pretty big margin. It doesn't need nerfed...it just needs adjusted for that content. i.e. How bloodwhetting addresses aoe healing.

Even if they change bloodwhetting for dungeon content....it's STILL dungeon content....I could STILL watch Netflix and talk to my friends on discord, and STILL complete a dungeon easily, I can't do that during savage pulls. What matters to me is the single target Savage regen...don't change that as it's pretty well balanced for savage content.

[Supersnow845]

There is also an argument to be made that tank mastery has been taken too far and tanks simply do not take enough damage (though I guess you could also scale up tank specific damage)

Tanks take barely more than 1/10th of the damage of the rest of the party, they are never remotely in any danger of anything besides their own tankbusters and maybe some spicy autos like E8 shiva if they have 7 vuln stacks

Tanks simply have too many upsides and not enough downsides, they are near immortal outside of tankbusters they can either ignore with an invuln or kitchen sink with all their other mitigation they don’t use on anything else because they are never at risk, they can functionally freely use their healing near whenever they want because between their invuln and their wealth of other mitigation their healing mitigation isn’t strictly needed to survive the few mechanics that do actually put them in danger. They can play pocket healer with their heal another mitigation and their AOE mitigation and they do more damage than healers while being totally independent of the party to actually achieve said damage while the healers (especially AST and SCH) require the party to work optimally to achieve their damage potential

Tanks literal single downside is they don’t do true DPS levels of damage (I’m gonna ignore AOE as AOE damage scaling is a mess) at the level cap (in old content go ham considering 8 tank clears of 70 ultimates would arguably be easier to execute than traditional comps if it wasn’t for random target selection on mechanics like searing wind and UWU’s LB3 requirements)

Tanks desperately need some downsides or some true weaknesses

Also I still don’t see how any of the current tank short CD’s besides TBN need that much healing, sure you aren’t immortal but why do you need 1600 potency of healing per 25 seconds as a tank. That’s literally what the healer is there for. Single target healing is all but dead these days because tanks simply don’t need it. 75+% of the time even in savage you are healing more than the damage you take at any one time, tank CD’s alone shouldn’t outheal tank damage in downtime phases

[GoatOfWar]

Tanks desperately need some downsides or some true weaknesses

We actually had this. Dark knight's mitigation plan was better equipped to deal with magic, and it did more damage.
But it has no self healing and falls behind against physical damage.

Paladin had the best support, mit and sustain.
But it dealt the lowest dps and had the longest cooldown on it's invuln.

Gunbreaker is the highest dps tank, but it's prone to drift and it's overall utility wasn't super strong.

Then there's warrior..
No weaknesses, but never the best at anything *formerly*.
But now it has the best invuln, the best party wide, best short cd, is the easiest to play, overtook Paladin's sustain through stupid buffs it never needed.
Buffs that added entire abilities as bonus effects to it's toolkit because it did slightly worse against the bleeds in Abyssos. It got MASSIVE buffs on a patch dedicated to rework Paladin. Making sure Shake it remains superior.
Adding Gnb's Aurora to Equilibrium and double the healing from divine Veil to Shake it off. And finally, dps buffs. Because we can't tax Warrior on anything.

[Sqwall]

There is also an argument to be made that tank mastery has been taken too far and tanks simply do not take enough damage (though I guess you could also scale up tank specific damage)

Tanks take barely more than 1/10th of the damage of the rest of the party, they are never remotely in any danger of anything besides their own tankbusters and maybe some spicy autos like E8 shiva if they have 7 vuln stacks

Tanks simply have too many upsides and not enough downsides, they are near immortal outside of tankbusters they can either ignore with an invuln or kitchen sink with all their other mitigation they don’t use on anything else because they are never at risk, they can functionally freely use their healing near whenever they want because between their invuln and their wealth of other mitigation their healing mitigation isn’t strictly needed to survive the few mechanics that do actually put them in danger. They can play pocket healer with their heal another mitigation and their AOE mitigation and they do more damage than healers while being totally independent of the party to actually achieve said damage while the healers (especially AST and SCH) require the party to work optimally to achieve their damage potential

Tanks literal single downside is they don’t do true DPS levels of damage (I’m gonna ignore AOE as AOE damage scaling is a mess) at the level cap (in old content go ham considering 8 tank clears of 70 ultimates would arguably be easier to execute than traditional comps if it wasn’t for random target selection on mechanics like searing wind and UWU’s LB3 requirements)

Tanks desperately need some downsides or some true weaknesses

Finally we agree on something. I want tanks to take MORE damage...I have been saying this for maybe....5 years...

I miss danger in dungeons and pulling to much would rekt any tank. Healers needed to actually sweat and heal. DPS needed to DPS or the tank would die...or healer would oom whichever came first

I honestly think there is zero fix for dungeons in the short term. Savage seems to be the only balanced content with all the jobs included.

If they end Wall to Wall pulling and bosses that are really dangerous for tanks...then I might enjoy dungeons again....which I haven't enjoyed since Stormblood.

[Supersnow845]

We actually had this. Dark knight's mitigation plan was better equipped to deal with magic, and it did more damage.
But it has no self healing and falls behind against physical damage.

Paladin had the best support, mit and sustain.
But it dealt the lowest dps and had the longest cooldown on it's invuln.

Gunbreaker is the highest dps tank, but it's prone to drift and it's overall utility wasn't super strong.

Then there's warrior..
No weaknesses, but never the best at anything *formerly*.
But now it has the best invuln, the best party wide, is the easiest to play, overtook Paladin's sustain through stupid buffs it never needed.
Buffs that added entire abilities as bonus effects to it's toolkit because it did slightly worse against the bleeds in Abyssos. It got MASSIVE buffs on a patch dedicated to rework Paladin.
Adding Gnb's Aurora and double the healing from divine Veil to Shake it off. And finally, dps buffs. Because we can't tax Warrior on anything.

This is weaknesses of the tanks relative to each other. The collective tank role is far too strong. they could double WAR’s damage and give it 1 AOE benediction every 10 seconds and it still wouldn’t change the fact that even DRK is too strong

This is part of the problem, nothing against you but tanks mains are too quick to look at internal tank balance problems, you’ve completely lost sight of the fact that the collective tank role is disgustingly overpowered and warping the entire game around it

Yes DRK was better than PLD in x and GNB better than WAR in Y, that’s not the point, the entire collective role is the problem

[GoatOfWar]

This is weaknesses of the tanks relative to each other. The collective tank role is far too strong. they could double WAR’s damage and give it 1 AOE benediction every 10 seconds and it still wouldn’t change the fact that even DRK is too strong

This is part of the problem, nothing against you but tanks mains are too quick to look at internal tank balance problems, you’ve completely lost sight of the fact that the collective tank role is disgustingly overpowered and warping the entire game around it

Yes DRK was better than PLD in x and GNB better than WAR in Y, that’s not the point, the entire collective role is the problem

We're arguing for the same thing.
I don't want more healing on Dark knight, i want the tanks to be different and better in different situations.
I'm guessing you want flat nerfs to the role, i want every job in the role to have something to excell at.
I have already suggested nerfs to all tanks previously, like invulns becoming less available, taking shielding away from War and healing away from Drk to further lean into the job fantasies.
We probably disagree on the extent to which they should be nerfed though.

[Oizen]

There is also an argument to be made that tank mastery has been taken too far and tanks simply do not take enough damage (though I guess you could also scale up tank specific damage)

You're kinda preaching to choir on this one.
I'd LOVE to see Tank Mastery removed and bring back DPS stance and defense stance, but in their attempts to sand out all of the edges of this game they sorta just baked defense stance into tanks and indirectly made them borderline immortal.
Its honestly not surprising so many tanks these days dont know how to mitigate, because you quite literally don't even have to until Stormblood content, and even then its not that much of a skill check.

[Sqwall]

This is weaknesses of the tanks relative to each other. The collective tank role is far too strong. they could double WAR’s damage and give it 1 AOE benediction every 10 seconds and it still wouldn’t change the fact that even DRK is too strong

This is part of the problem, nothing against you but tanks mains are too quick to look at internal tank balance problems, you’ve completely lost sight of the fact that the collective tank role is disgustingly overpowered and warping the entire game around it

Yes DRK was better than PLD in x and GNB better than WAR in Y, that’s not the point, the entire collective role is the problem

Which can all be fixed....if tanks took more damage. i.e. mobs hit harder in dungeons/savage/ultimate. If they increased auto damage from all dungeon/savage/ultimate by 50%...then healers wouldn't be spamming 1 button...tanks would be die in like 3-4 hits depending how they rotated their mitigation.

Current state...most tank busters just tickle. So they tried to fix this with a bleed in 2nd tier...heals stressed out...but nothing major. And those bleeds...HURT. 30k-40k per tick! that's CRAZY damage! No joke my healers would say in discord: "I have to stop DPSING...JESUS that bleed!" I just shake my head...because they are a healer...complaining about their "rotation".

Now those bleeds or physical vuln debuff became the norm...as healers weren't getting challenged and tanks just weren't dieing. Then everyone was like OMG 2nd tier every tank buster has a bleed or physical damage up debuff. From p5s - p12s....it stayed.

Tank is getting trucked even with all the self healing they have.
Healer is sweating and healing.
DPS is DPSing to kill mobs faster then a healer and tank would to prevent enrage.

Trinity gameplay. Which we have lost for nearly 3 expansions.

Tanks have been this way for a long time.

[Supersnow845]

Which can all be fixed....if tanks took more damage. i.e. mobs hit harder in dungeons/savage/ultimate.

Tank is getting trucked even with all the self healer they have.
Healer is sweating and healing.
DPS is DPSing to kill mobs faster then a healer and tank would.

Trinity gameplay. Which we have lost for nearly 3 expansions. Tanks have been this way for a long time.

There is also an argument to be made that tanks need to be challenged more in content than hits everyone is part of my argument

If I only have time to heal one person before a raidwide and I can choose to send a SMN from 70% to 95% with zero vuln stacks or a tank from 20% to 30% with 3 vuln stacks 9 times out of 10 I am genuinely better off healing the SMN

Tanks should take less damage than the party but not so much less that anything that’s not specifically designed to only hit the tanks is functionally just getting hit by a piece of wet tissue to them. In the current design in content where everyone is taking some measure of damage healing the tank individually is functionally never the correct answer