Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

[Aravell]

I'm genuinely curious why so many people see rebalancing Bloodwhetting's healing as "gutting a fun tank".

[Zairava]

Well I was going to ask the above but he is leaving so I’ll ask it as a general question

Tank mains, if DT came out and square decided to make it so that holy’s stun never fell off so that as long as the WHM pressed it once every 10 seconds or so the enemies could never actually do damage to you would you genuinely enjoy that. I mean it makes the run easier And if you ever say “but I like being able to press my defensives” other people respond with “but holy is fun, don’t ruin healers change tanks”

That’s basically what bloodwhetting is/not excog and holy Shelton as well

Pressing a fun button shouldn’t invalidate another role

That analogy is pretty good.

To answer the obvious, no.

Quite frankly, none of the short tank CD's needed upgrading, Nascent Flash in ShB was infinitely better designed than Bloodwhetting as well. I would much rather they get downscaled to how they were prior and they actually do something with the long CD's (Shadow Wall, Sentinel, and Nebula) that differentiate them from one another. Vengeance already has the counterattack damage, now it [potentially] looks like it's getting another effect in Dawntrail. It will be upsetting to say the least if the other three tanks don't get something done with their long CD's.

To make a case in point, I'll dabble with PLD and GNB from time to time, but I actively refuse to play Warrior because you're playing god while the job is about as engaging as putting bread in the toaster then waiting for it to be done. I don't care if it's dungeon content and it's made to be easy, bloodwhetting makes the already boring and mundane even more boring and I refuse to make the Healer's role nothing more than flavor text. It wouldn't be the end of the world if it literally got reverted to ShB Nascent Flash, it was already more than enough.

I have many gripes with DRK currently, but the defensive toolkit is not one of them.

[Sqwall]

You say that, but the sad/funny thing is in dungeons, which has been the strange primary focus of this discussion, healers CAN be tanks. Because the damage is just that pathetically low. I've done stupid meme runs of 1h/3dps -just to see what would happen- and it actually worked, like even the tankbusters didn't come close to lethal (tested this with trusts, by letting thancred die and then just aquaveiling myself before a tankbuster hit me lol), and packs of trash die so fast that it legit isn't even a factor. That's why I keep harping on the fact that if you're going to have this discussion about gutting a job, the basis of it probably shouldn't be be how well it performs in dungeons because modern dungeons are so nerfed and so soft that basically any comp can go in and experience no issues. The whole focus of this thread just seems aimed in the wrong direction to me. Because even if you got your way and WAR was just a boring tank that did 123 until it filled its gauge, next you'd probably be in here talking about Paladin having too many heals, and then you'd probably want GNB's HoC removed too, and then there're DPS jobs that heal as well so we'd better remove that too, ... or the devs could just release dungeons that actually called for the beefy healing kits that healers have, and we wouldn't have to ruin anything for anyone. I prefer the latter approach, as someone who plays everything and does actually heal quite a bit.

Gonna hop out, was genuinely nice talking to you. Sorry if it felt repetitive on your end though.

This guy gets it.

[rawker]

You just don't want WAR nerfed and continue to be OP

[Sqwall]

Well I was going to ask the above but he is leaving so I’ll ask it as a general question

Tank mains, if DT came out and square decided to make it so that holy’s stun never fell off so that as long as the WHM pressed it once every 10 seconds or so the enemies could never actually do damage to you would you genuinely enjoy that. I mean it makes the run easier And if you ever say “but I like being able to press my defensives” other people respond with “but holy is fun, don’t ruin healers change tanks”

That’s basically what bloodwhetting is/not excog and holy Shelton as well

Pressing a fun button shouldn’t invalidate another role

I wouldn't care because it's dungeon content. Dungeon content in it's current form is already boring...no mater what tank/job I play. This also goes for alliances (Nier/ivalice raids are exceptions as those were good amount of difficult....hell even delebrum regena and dalriada can be lobbed in there also).

Why would I even care if a dungeon run takes LESS time since it's gear I don't need or i'm going to trade it the grand company for YET MORE dark matter. Get the daily done....and get out. It's all about the tomes and being savage ready. Where the real content starts imo.

And crazy thing is about savage/ultimate....THAT is where all the jobs are BALANCED. WAR isn't this godlike being that can't die....neither is PLD...or GNB...or DRK.

That being said....I have advocated for YEARS that tanks need to take WAY more damage in dungeons....prevent Wall to Wall pulling...and stop with making content style over substance. I remember games that rewarded you with completing something difficult and you get to see what happens in the story for beating a difficult dungeon. Now it's just snoozefest in dungeons. I miss hardmodes, and alternate versions. I used to run those primarily in ARR and Heavensward because they required more then 2 brain cells to complete.

DT hopefully won't double down on Endwalker dungeon design and actually have dungeons be a right of passage to progress the story.

[Sqwall]

You just don't want WAR nerfed and continue to be OP

No....I don't want something nerfed...that doesn't need nerfed.

Try savage or ultimate....WAR is fine.

[Supersnow845]

I wouldn't care because it's dungeon content. Dungeon content in it's current form is already boring...no mater what tank/job I play. This also goes for alliances (Nier/ivalice raids are exceptions as those were good amount of difficult....hell even delebrum regena and dalriada can be lobbed in there also).

Why would I even care if a dungeon run takes LESS time since it's gear I don't need or i'm going to trade it the grand company for YET MORE dark matter. Get the daily done....and get out. It's all about the tomes and being savage ready. Where the real content starts imo.

And crazy thing is about savage/ultimate....THAT is where all the jobs are BALANCED. WAR isn't this godlike being that can't die....neither is PLD...or GNB...or DRK.

That being said....I have advocated for YEARS that tanks need to take WAY more damage in dungeons....prevent Wall to Wall pulling...and stop with making content style of substance. I remember games that rewarded you with completing something difficult and you get to see what happens in the story for beating a difficult dungeon. Now it's just snoozefest in dungeons. I miss hardmodes, and alternate versions. I used to run those primarily in ARR and Heavensward because they required more then 2 brain cells to complete.

DT hopefully won't double down on Endwalker dungeon design and actually have dungeons be a right of passage to progress the story.

Okay then let me ask the reverse question, if dungeon content is so easy then what’s the downside to nerfing bloodwhetting, it’s obviously not needed so why does it need to exist

You obviously glean no enjoyment from dungeon content so it’s not like the button is fun for you to press

[Sqwall]

Okay then let me ask the reverse question, if dungeon content is so easy then what’s the downside to nerfing bloodwhetting, it’s obviously not needed so why does it need to exist

You obviously glean no enjoyment from dungeon content so it’s not like the button is fun for you to press

I have stated numerous times bloodwhetting is broken in dungeon content. I don't deny this. But like I have said and I'll say it again...Bloodwhetting in single target scenario is balanced with the other tanks save DRK.

That's why when I go into savage or my discord needs a tank fill for an ultimate (personally dislike ultimates)...WAR feels fine. Now ultimates isn't a good gauge for the argument as most ultimate's don't grant Bloodwhetting.

But the real issue everyone is having is that bloodwhetting in dungeons is just flat out broken. So like I mentioned before...in order to "fix" this SE can do 1 of 2 things....or 2 things idk.

1. Make bloodwhetting have a diminished return after the first enemy is hit. i.e. 100% regen for first....60% for second....40% for third....and 20% for remainder.
2. Make dungeons actually hard....I have mentioned in the past a two tier dungeon system....synced(normal) and minimum ilevel synced (hard). Normal sync is easymode and grants just normal rewards gear/tomes etc. And Hard ilevel synced is hard mode...as nobody in the party despite having savage BiS can outdo the content. The lower you sync your level...the greater the rewards and the more rare. i.e. glamour mats, glamour gear, rare gathering mats, rare crafting mats, gil, tome bonuses.

There is a third nuclear option which I would love is dungeon modifiers or transmuters that are granted like Eureka Orthos style...but when you open a boss chest you get a modifier.
i.e. Every mob hit with AOE gives physical vuln, no jumping, 25% less healing potency, -10% accuracy, -10% run speed, immunities disabled(tank invulns, arms length, even Inner Release knockback immune), reprisal-feint-addle disabled, 20% more incoming damage. etc...etc...etc..

So every boss that you down makes the dungeon more harder...but increases your loot rewards and tome bonus. Those that work well together are rewarded...those that don't....well....theres always Normal.

[Oizen]

No....I don't want something nerfed...that doesn't need nerfed.

Try savage or ultimate....WAR is fine.

I mean yeah I agree, BW is fine in single Target. I'd say Nascent Flash is where the balance gets iffy in that content.
But in the context of both I don't see why we coulnd't just move BW to healing per GCD rather than per target, it be a lot more manageable overall and have no impact on higher raiding.
I've said this multiple times but I don't think its possible to balance around Bloodwhetting in AOE at all. The ammount of shit you'd have to throw into the mix to justify its heal output is nonsensical, you'd also basically be forced to give GNB, DRK and PLD their own bloodhwettings which isn't something anyone wants to see.

Personally I expect nothing to change because this game only ever balances around Week 1 Savage SPECIFICALLY and all other forms of content regardless of difficulty is intentionally discarded, but I really don't view this as ideal.

[Marxam]

Pretty much this. And they seemingly forgot this important point within 2 years.

Back in Stormblood Warrior's healing was limited by both beast gauge for Inner Beast and tank stance for both it and Equilibrium, not only a heavy restriction but also a dps loss.
Even in Shadowbringers, where most of the restrictions were lifted, Nascent Flash was still limited by your ability to do enough damage during the buff, which consequently limited it by how many high potency skills were available to you at that moment.

But somehow the knowledge about needing to restrict tank sustain vanished from the dev's collective memory with Endwalker.

It's why I will always say that removing tank stances was the dumbest thing they could have done for tanks.