Nerf gil profit from submarine

[Jojoya]

My own server has ~134 small plots available. Both personal/FC. Many of which have not had a single bid in months. Coeurl is considered a highly populated server. Even had the Congested label on it, until relatively recently.

This made me curious so I just looked for myself. I didn't come up with 134 smalls but it was over 100 and mostly in the mixed and personal wards. The Empyreum FC wards had a fair number of smalls but there were almost no smalls in the FC wards of the other districts.

Even more interesting were the dozen mediums and 2 larges I saw. Not going to come close to meeting the demand for the larger plots but more than I was expecting.

You forgot the part about the sublords are also in it for the resale, of course this is all about the large and mediums.
Removing fight club would absolutely free up future larges and mediums because many of those are tied to the longcon sub resale scheme. There is absolutely no reason for them to stick to smalls when resale value is astronomical, they are incentivized to double dip. The larger the sublord entity becomes the more bids they get to bid, win and upgrade into a large to then resell for a gil cap.

Here you are once again going off the deep end with your sub farm/resale conspiracy theories.

The "sublords" aren't reselling their houses. If they were into resale, they wouldn't bother setting up workshops. It takes longer to get a workshop generating a decent profit than it would take to sell the house. Unlocking sectors takes time. Ranking up the subs high enough to get the necessary stats to make routes like Fight Club worthwhile takes time.

It's time that doesn't exist if the point is to resell the house. Resellers don't want to be sitting on a house for 6-7 months.

If you're genuinely convinced you're correct, stop with the "feelycraft" and collect the data from at least your own world if not all of NA and share it with us. Just how many medium and large FC houses owned by "sublords" are there? What criteria did you use to determine that it was a "sublord" who owned the plot? If you go back 3 months later, has the name of the FC owner changed on those houses?

[Reinha]

The "sublords" aren't reselling their houses. If they were into resale, they wouldn't bother setting up workshops. It takes longer to get a workshop generating a decent profit than it would take to sell the house. Unlocking sectors takes time. Ranking up the subs high enough to get the necessary stats to make routes like Fight Club worthwhile takes time.

It's time that doesn't exist if the point is to resell the house. Resellers don't want to be sitting on a house for 6-7 months.

Exactly. And removing the submarine money would only encourage sublords to swap tactics and make gil with resales of mediums and larges. That can be done every 30 days if there are no submarines being built. They probably have a hundred characters to enter the bidding game with, are people sure they want to compete with that instead of them simply continuing to make money with unwanted small houses?

Mounts, minions and other goods from voyages sell for peanuts in comparison and would make this content not worth the tens of millions of gil and months of work it takes to even get started. Unless... the drops were unique and untradable, so that finishing the voyage yourself was the only way to obtain them. Fcs could utilize the rank system to allow all their members to benefit. I could add a few rare mounts to my collection and they would be worth the investment, if gil was out of the picture.

[ZiraZ]

Exactly. And removing the submarine money would only encourage sublords to swap tactics and make gil with resales of mediums and larges. That can be done every 30 days if there are no submarines being built. They probably have a hundred characters to enter the bidding game with, are people sure they want to compete with that instead of them simply continuing to make money with unwanted small houses?

Mounts, minions and other goods from voyages sell for peanuts in comparison and would make this content not worth the tens of millions of gil and months of work it takes to even get started. Unless... the drops were unique and untradable, so that finishing the voyage yourself was the only way to obtain them. Fcs could utilize the rank system to allow all their members to benefit. I could add a few rare mounts to my collection and they would be worth the investment, if gil was out of the picture.

"Let them keep ruining the game or else they will get angry and ruin it even more"
Might as well also let the limsa sewer bots out too, they cheat as much as the the "sublords" I didn't choose that name btw, I prefer to call them"suspiciously adjacent to RMT person"

[Reinha]

Removing fight club would absolutely free up future larges and mediums because many of those are tied to the longcon sub resale scheme. There is absolutely no reason for them to stick to smalls when resale value is astronomical, they are incentivized to double dip. The larger the sublord entity becomes the more bids they get to bid, win and upgrade into a large to then resell for a gil cap.

"Let them keep ruining the game or else they will get angry and ruin it even more"

You have never once explained how submarines "ruin the game", only how reselling does. Removing fight club would not remove the ability to upgrade to mediums and larges for the purpose of reselling them, so no mediums or larges would be freed up. Use logic please.

[LianaThorne]

The "sublords" aren't reselling their houses. If they were into resale, they wouldn't bother setting up workshops. It takes longer to get a workshop generating a decent profit than it would take to sell the house. Unlocking sectors takes time. Ranking up the subs high enough to get the necessary stats to make routes like Fight Club worthwhile takes time.

I can't really post proof without risking an account ban but this isn't true either. Having full submarines on a resell shoots the price up ridiculously compared to a barebones house. People will raise houses with maxed subs and then sell them for gil cap depending on the plot they're attached to (LB 41 for example). It's really not weird for multi-owners in the sub business to also sell off some of their houses when they want to drop accounts either to recoup their investment. You could probably go onto any of the black market discords rn and find a sub owner selling their houses lol.

[Jojoya]

I can't really post proof without risking an account ban but this isn't true either. Having full submarines on a resell shoots the price up ridiculously compared to a barebones house. People will raise houses with maxed subs and then sell them for gil cap depending on the plot they're attached to (LB 41 for example). It's really not weird for multi-owners in the sub business to also sell off some of their houses when they want to drop accounts either to recoup their investment. You could probably go onto any of the black market discords rn and find a sub owner selling their houses lol.

Are players actually buying them at gil cap, or is that just the price being listed?

Because if they're buying them at gil cap, they need to take basic math classes again and congrats to the seller who found a real sucker.

As nice as Fight Club is, it's not THAT profitable from a single workshop. The loot isn't consistent enough. Maybe my RNG is bad but even if one of my better than normal weeks was happening every week it would take me 285 weeks (over 5 years) to reach gil cap off a single workshop running Fight Club on all 4 subs. Granted that the house itself is theoretically important to the buyer but dang that's some stupid at work.

I have no doubt the occasional house with maxed workshop gets sold but it's far more likely to be a random player that inherited a FC house when the rest of the FC stopped playing than a sublord. As bad as the subfarm situation has gotten, it's easy to forget that other types of players also have FC houses and also may have reasons to sell them. And that some of those reasons to sell are acceptable to SE. Their restrictions are only you cannot purchase with intent to resell and you can only sell for gil, not real money or other items that may have a real money value.

Took me a year to get 2 submarines to the level where I can farm some money, just waiting on the third. Considering the amount of money and time I put in I think it's absolutely fair. Just knock those scrubs who own multiple plots out of all but 1 of their houses and we're good to go. 1 house per account is more than enough.

More effective would be to remove workshops from housing and place them elsewhere, then give every player one workshop per account (that all characters on the account can access). Would that hurt FCs that rely on workshops for funding events? Sadly, yes if their members aren't willing to donate gil or items. But Company credits are very underutilized compared to the number an active FC will generate. SE needs to be creating more uses for company credits beyond buying fuel and FC actions.

"Let them keep ruining the game or else they will get angry and ruin it even more"
Might as well also let the limsa sewer bots out too, they cheat as much as the the "sublords" I didn't choose that name btw, I prefer to call them"suspiciously adjacent to RMT person"

While I think your heart is in the right place, you're trying to simplify the housing problem as having a single source when it's a lot more complex and the source you picked generally doesn't work the way you seem to think.

If you want to simplify the housing problem, it is:

"SE choose poorly (when they created their housing design)".

The art aesthetic of the game works in housing beautifully. The appearance (mostly, burn those Paissa and effigies) can be magnificent in the hands of some of the skilled housing designers in the player base.

The systems underneath the aesthetic just suck. Some nice concepts, but no allowances were made for for how players actually play MMORPGs.

Nerf submarines salvage = fix housing

Remove workshops from housing = housing in a slightly better but still bad position due to size distribution since the wards are now flooded with smalls while players are trying to get mediums and larges..

Seriously, nerfing salvage is not going to have the effect you think.

My absolute best salvage return from a single voyage was 890k. I've hit over 500k on voyages on 2 other occasions over about 18 months of having subs suitable for Fight Club.

I've lost count of the number of trips where I got 0 Salvage back but it's at least 2 dozen (and I'm only running a single workshop with Fight Club). Seriously. All I got back were Gold Ingots, Platinum Ingots, Rubies, Diamonds, Emeralds and similar, the stuff that sells for under 20 gil on the MB because the MB has become so flooded with those items coming back from Fight Club.

Most of my voyages come back with 145-220k in Salvage. Keep in mind that those voyages take just over 2 days each. It's not daily.

Math time, and I'll assume absolute efficiency on sending subs back out within minutes of their return.

30 days in a month/2 day voyage time is 15 voyages a month.

15 voyages earning 220k gil from Salvage each trip is 3.3 million gil per month per sub.

3.3 million gil times 4 subs is 13.2 million gil per workshop per month. Compare that to the 25-30 million a day I make crafting and selling end game gear as a new raid gets released. I'm not even that hardcore of a seller of endgame gear. I don't camp my retainers all day long like the hardcore sellers do.

In order to make 5 billion gil a month, I would need 379 workshops.

No one is running 379 workshops. They don't have the time.

This is not directed at you but at the players who would rather address the symptoms;house hoarders/sublords/RMTers etc than the root cause.

Sometimes it feels like as players we have just given up on holding SE accountable for a flawed system and getting SE to fix it at the fundamental level.

Guess we can keep doing these housing arguments back and forth with the next set of housing woe scapegoats once submarines are nerfed.

That's because human beings are obsessed with blame.

It's far easier to point fingers at others and blame them than to step up to fix the actual problem.

(current us political parties in a nutshell)

I would happily step up to fix the housing problem if I could. I can't. It's not within my power.

We have to rely on SE to do it. They are the ones with that power.

[LianaThorne]

Are players actually buying them at gil cap, or is that just the price being listed?

Because if they're buying them at gil cap, they need to take basic math classes again and congrats to the seller who found a real sucker.

Yes, depending on plot. LB 41, for example, goes for gil cap (potentially higher on a server like Balmung).

You'll also find mansions such as Shiro 60 and Mist 2 going for close to or at gil cap w/ submarines.

I've seen the ads get sold as well.

This isn't anything uncommon either, this is just the value to the housing black market community and people pay it. I personally wouldn't but that's been the norm for at least a couple years now.

[TwistedTea]

(current us political parties in a nutshell)

Art imitates life

Putting on the tinfoil hat :
It's in SE's interests to keep players fighting against each other regarding the housing issue. Maybe once in a while throw players a bone in the form of additional wards/servers/housing mirage etc

Since a proper fix at the fundamental level - Keep the existing wards housing while implementing a proper fully instanced housing system would be expensive for SE both money and time wise.

Just as with the real life housing crisis in most developed countries, the crony politicians and corporations practice, Divide and rule , so that the plebs will never come together and scrutinize what their ruling elites are doing.

[Krokov]

"Fight Club".

What pray is 'Fight Club'?

[TwistedTea]

What pray is 'Fight Club'?

Submarines can farm something called salvaged accessories .

You sell these salvaged items to the NPCs for raw gil.

The submarine discord calls it Fight Club as a meme name based on the movie:
The first rule of Fight Club is: you do not talk about Fight Club.

Back in 2019, when the Fight Club farming concept was introduced, people were worried SE might Salvage farming if too many people spoke about it.

Over time however, it's the worst kept secret and YoshiP/SE have publicly acknowledged in previous Live Letters and don't currently see it as a problem. The LL in question:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M7woTokd3E