Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

[Lyth]

It really only matters that support DPS is balanced within roles and that jobs that tend to do higher aDPS do slightly less rDPS and vice versa, within a given role. Support DPS contributions have deliberately trended down since the end of Heavensward despite requests to the contrary. Tanks have fairly consistently done more damage than Healers. This is partially a byproduct of the fact that there have always been healers clearing raid content who will legitimately do nothing other than heal and perhaps put up an occasional DoT. So we're not even talking about the top-end standard of one-button Broil gameplay. You would never see this with tanks.

This difference was actually maximal at the time when Cleric Stance was out (ARR/HW), since tanks with STR gear were competing with physical ranged DPS back then. Also, the reason why Cleric Stance gets remembered so fondly by midcore healers was because you could simply take turns solo healing for a more clear cut performance difference over players who refused to press the button. Even if you would never cut it as Caster DPS, at least you could get good numbers on Healer for relatively low effort.

Either way, this isn't a healer thread or even a healer forum, and distracting from other players' issues and concerns won't win you any favors.

The crux of the problem here is that SE very rarely balances utility and mitigation skill sets mid-expansion, so any balance changes to tank self-sustain and mitigation need to be happening now. If WAR doesn't have significant adjustments to self-sustain, then you're going to be living with that 'balance' for the next two years. If other tanks continue to have physical/magical conditional mitigation tools while WAR's mitigation remains universal, then there's also no point in complaining about that once DT hits. This is the time to be talking about it. It's now or never.

[Valence]

The decision to widen the gap between the roles so much is a strange one considering that the DPS gap back in ARR/HW was so much closer to the point that a really good tank player can outdamage a sub-par DPS player.

Would be nice to see player skill matter again and not just job choice.

I do not agree. As a DPS I feel like losing a DPS to a death should punish a team a lot more on the damage department than losing a support job. Losing said support job should punish more on recovery and potentially snowballing due to lost aggro or healing resources, which unfortunately has a bit been diluted over the years. I don't like feeling that my role is being gnawed at on the damage department by support roles. I want the DPS role to feel relevant.

Tank power has varied a great deal between expansions. I feel like they don't really know where to put tanks currently, especially since tanks are spreading far outside of the boundaries of their role. If anything, it's already a problem in dungeons where they can out DPS some dps jobs by having an immediately, fully frontloaded damage AoE burst similar to SMN. I feel that the only thing that prevents them to be more effective with 4 tanks there instead of 3 DPS and a tank is that pulls melt quite a bit faster than 60s until their bursts are ready again...

I do agree on the player skill part though. Most jobs those days, if one just presses their buttons and keep the gcd rolling, they already do a good chunk of their expected damage.

[Supersnow845]

It really only matters that support DPS is balanced within roles and that jobs that tend to do higher aDPS do slightly less rDPS and vice versa, within a given role. Support DPS contributions have deliberately trended down since the end of Heavensward despite requests to the contrary. Tanks have fairly consistently done more damage than Healers. This is partially a byproduct of the fact that there have always been healers clearing raid content who will legitimately do nothing other than heal and perhaps put up an occasional DoT. So we're not even talking about the top-end standard of one-button Broil gameplay. You would never see this with tanks.

This difference was actually maximal at the time when Cleric Stance was out (ARR/HW), since tanks with STR gear were competing with physical ranged DPS back then. Also, the reason why Cleric Stance gets remembered so fondly by midcore healers was because you could simply take turns solo healing for a more clear cut performance difference over players who refused to press the button. Even if you would never cut it as Caster DPS, at least you could get good numbers on Healer for relatively low effort.

Either way, this isn't a healer thread or even a healer forum, and distracting from other players' issues and concerns won't win you any favors.

The crux of the problem here is that SE very rarely balances utility and mitigation skill sets mid-expansion, so any balance changes to tank self-sustain and mitigation need to be happening now. If WAR doesn't have significant adjustments to self-sustain, then you're going to be living with that 'balance' for the next two years. If other tanks continue to have physical/magical conditional mitigation tools while WAR's mitigation remains universal, then there's also no point in complaining about that once DT hits. This is the time to be talking about it. It's now or never.

The healers were simply being used as a point of comparison in the damage department, not an attempt to derail a tank thread to make it about healers. In this case “WAR should get the DRK treatment” extends to the fact that tank DPS should be nerfed going forward because it’s both encroaching on the healers healing role and the DPS’s DPSing role, the tanks are morphing into all three roles in one and since they never seem to get nerfed mid expansion (they just buff the other three to shadow nerf the one they want nerfed despite this unbalancing the other roles) this is exactly the time to talk about how much DPS the tanks should be doing as much as it is a time to talk about their sustain and their mitigation

Would you prefer if I phrased it as “are DPS players happy tanks are functionally playing diet DPS now” rather than coming at it from the healer angle

[Aravell]

I do not agree. As a DPS I feel like losing a DPS to a death should punish a team a lot more on the damage department than losing a support job. Losing said support job should punish more on recovery and potentially snowballing due to lost aggro or healing resources, which unfortunately has a bit been diluted over the years. I don't like feeling that my role is being gnawed at on the damage department by support roles. I want the DPS role to feel relevant.

You misunderstood my point. I'm not saying that tanks and healers should do equal damage to a DPS job, that would make DPS jobs useless.

What I'm saying is that an optimised tank or healer should be able to beat the damage of a sub-par DPS player. Failure to execute the mechanics of your chosen job should be punished, a fully optimised healer should not do less damage than a melee that completely ignores a core mechanic of their job. That was the case in HW, and I'd like to see that be the case again.

In short, I want the lowest lows of the DPS jobs to be lower than the 70%+ point of the support roles. If a tank fails their job, the mobs attack everyone else, the results are obvious. If a healer fails their job, the party dies to damage, the results are obvious. If a DPS fails their only job of executing their rotation correctly, they should be dead last on the enmity list, the results should be as obvious as the other roles.

[Lyth]

???

Er, what? Tank damage output has had a steady decline since the end of Heavensward, and gear progression on tanks has been consistently terrible. You'll rarely see a DPS BiS with unwanted stats. The difference between a tank and DPS is so significant nowadays that you would have to be undergeared, have Brink of Death, and be physically away from your keyboard before a tank player catches up to you.

If anything, the balance has swung too far away from tanks in terms of damage and rotational complexity, and there's a lot less incentive to play the role now. Pretty much the only saving grace is in the fact that tanks have taken over the healer role in lieu of having meaningful impact in terms of positioning or dealing damage. Even queue times don't justify playing a tank right now, and it's not at all hard to find a spot as a DPS.

DPS is the only role that is currently happy with the existing gameplay design. I know you have this mindset that nerfing tanks would somehow make people value healers more, but that's far from the case. The erosion of healer value has more to do with the ongoing and widespread community commentary on one-button Broil gameplay.

[Supersnow845]

Er, what? Tank damage output has had a steady decline since the end of Heavensward, and gear progression on tanks has been consistently terrible. You'll rarely see a DPS BiS with unwanted stats. The difference between a tank and DPS is so significant nowadays that you would have to be undergeared, have Brink of Death, and be physically away from your keyboard before a tank player catches up to you.

If anything, the balance has swung too far away from tanks in terms of damage and rotational complexity, and there's a lot less incentive to play the role now. Pretty much the only saving grace is in the fact that tanks have taken over the healer role in lieu of having meaningful impact in terms of positioning or dealing damage. Even queue times don't justify playing a tank right now, and it's not at all hard to find a spot as a DPS.

DPS is the only role that is currently happy with the existing gameplay design. I know you have this mindset that nerfing tanks would somehow make people value healers more, but that's far from the case. The erosion of healer value has more to do with the ongoing and widespread community commentary on one-button Broil gameplay.

High level optimised tank damage has been going down but average tank contribution has been rising considering tank rotations barely have a fail state anymore (not that DPS rotations are much better). If you compare the contribution of the collective supports vs the collective DPS in Alexander or coils vs panda the supports do way more of the raids collective damage than they used to even if a gold parsing phys ranged vs a gold parsing tank in Alexander was closer

Still you are overestimating how far behind the tanks are in damage especially since tanks have a smaller range of DPS discrepancy compared to the DPS so it’s much easier to achieve the relative average

And I’m not in favour of nerfing the tanks because I want people to “value the healers more” I’m in favour of nerfing tanks because if your role gets eroded you don’t just co opt another role and call it good, you ever wonder why healer mains never ask for a tank stance, we ask to fix our own role, tanks encroachment on the other roles needs to be fixed, you can’t “make the healers more interesting” your way out of the fact that WAR has too much healing

[rawker]

A good benchmark for me is that every job follow a baseline dps wherein if all jobs do the bare minimum of their rotations, their DPS are not far apart, at most 2% variance.

To differentiate, DPS jobs will get more moves to further themselves ahead of tanks and healers in the damage-dealing, then add some utility so they can make tanks and healer lives easier: perfect examples are Bloodbath and Second Wind. It is not overshadowing what healers do but it helps the healers by reducing the damage they received so the healers will not heal them more.

As for Tank and Healer DPS, they will still be allowed to go beyond said dps baseline but they have to pour in the effort for it. I think that's what Aravell is leading to.

[GoatOfWar]

A good benchmark for me is that every job follow a baseline dps wherein if all jobs do the bare minimum of their rotations, their DPS are not far apart, at most 2% variance.

To differentiate, DPS jobs will get more moves to further themselves ahead of tanks and healers in the damage-dealing, then add some utility so they can make tanks and healer lives easier: perfect examples are Bloodbath and Second Wind. It is not overshadowing what healers do but it helps the healers by reducing the damage they received so the healers will not heal them more.

As for Tank and Healer DPS, they will still be allowed to go beyond said dps baseline but they have to pour in the effort for it. I think that's what Aravell is leading to.

We already had that before they ruined it with the 6.4 patch.

[Lyth]

???

Tanks are absolutely not encroaching on DPS. The gap is massive. In fact, I would encourage anyone who is comfortable at optimizing on tank to swap to melee instead, simply because you can have a much more satisfying impact on your team's success and be properly valued for your talents. You're not missing out on much of a 'tanking experience' in this current era of self-positioning bosses.

Self-sustain is a completely different issue, but tanks definitely don't need a dps nerf.

[Derio]

I agree what most people said. The tanks are extremely close in DPS to now it simply comes down to utility and ease of play. This is where Warrior is a problem. PLD and GNB require much more work for far less gain in terms of the balance of utility and damage.

Devs said that utility will not determine the dps for tank and healers. So we should see an extreme homogenization of the tanks and healers in terms of utility. Otherwise it will be complete chaos come 7.0 in terms of tanks and will see a PLD/WAR meta.

This should be the expansion where GNB/DRK party wide mitigation is addressed along with their self sustain, moreso for DRK since GNB got a little better with 6.0