What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Vyrerus]

Except Kairos was already created, and it was in use by other Ancients in Elpis. It's supposed to be a serious and strictly monitored thing, so you're telling me there's more than one? Or that such a serious thing would be only in Ktsis, at the very top, when it has to be employed by any of the researchers anywhere else? You're telling me it's just is wherever Hermes is, even if he doesn't know whether it's been used or not earlier in Elpis?

Or he just created a new one, and it didn't tax him at all? After he'd already been taxed to his limits in the fight? You'd think such a powerful creation or device or whatever it's supposed to be would come with some weighty cost.

Or you know, the other more obvious problem with the scene. Emet-selch not just blowing Kairos the hell out of the air. Venat reaching out her hand to try and catch Meteion instead of hitting her with her chakrams or idk, multi-tooling her magic sword into a gun and shooting her down. Or the common Holmgang chains all characters get when they need to restrain other characters (Like the ones Hermes employed just a second ago, somehow, weee).

It's actually, really, a terrible scene contrived, artificial, in its every second. People stand with their thumbs up their ass, expositing instead of acting. Shown to seem like they tried their best, only for that to fall apart if you think about the scene for half a minute.

[Dikatis]

Except Kairos was already created, and it was in use by other Ancients in Elpis. It's supposed to be a serious and strictly monitored thing, so you're telling me there's more than one? Or that such a serious thing would be only in Ktsis, at the very top, when it has to be employed by any of the researchers anywhere else? You're telling me it's just is wherever Hermes is, even if he doesn't know whether it's been used or not earlier in Elpis?

What are you talking about? It's a creation. Meaning that anyone given clearance by the chief overseer can just magick one into existence. Hermes is the supreme authority in Elpis and the one who provides that clearance. Of course he just make another one and activate it when he's the one who INVENTED IT. I don't understand why you're so hung up on the idea of Kairos being "present" when literally everyone in Elpis has the power to bend the fabric of reality and magick anything into existence if they can imagine it. It's not even taxing enough for the researchers of Elpis to consider using Kairos a form of last resort. They mentioned it off-handedly as one of the measures they tried to pacify the lykaons.

Or you know, the other more obvious problem with the scene. Emet-selch not just blowing Kairos the hell out of the air. Venat reaching out her hand to try and catch Meteion instead of hitting her with her chakrams or idk, multi-tooling her magic sword into a gun and shooting her down. Or the common Holmgang chains all characters get when they need to restrain other characters (Like the ones Hermes employed just a second ago, somehow, weee).

Implying that Emet-Selch could do that casually with his powers dampened by Ktisis Hyperboreia's security measures (that were mentioned at the very start of the event) and Hermes standing guard over it. There's a reason why Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch prioritized getting WoL to safety to escape Kairos' range rather than trying to strike down Hermes and destroy Kairos. Hermes took on WoL, Venat, and Emet-Selch at the same time and came out of it without dying and is still strong enough to stop Venat's charge. This is on top of Hermes being a tremendously powerful mage who spams the highest level of wind magic as well Meteor, an "apex magic". What makes you think that Emet-Selch alone could somehow casually overpower Hermes? There's also no indication that Venat knows the same binding spells as Hermes, let alone one capable of keeping up with Meteion who is flying at escape velocity. As for the chakrams? Have you ever tried throwing something while the wind is blowing in your face? Guess what? It flies back into your face. Now try that while flying at atmospheric escape velocity.

You're purposefully omitting context to present a skewed version of the events that actually happened.

[Vyrerus]

What are you talking about?

No, what are you talking about? You're adding information that wasn't given. They did not talk about how or where Kairos was implemented routinely. They did not say that researchers just magick it out of the air. Like this is literally just the weakest form of foreshadowing, "Oh hey, by the way, we have a secret memory wiping device." To which Emet-selch then implies that not even Pashtarot knows about it, and that's kind of that Convocation seat's wheelhouse. And that makes two Convocation members unapprised of the goings on of Elpis, which really just points to another thing in Endwalker that beggars belief.

Implying Emet-selch could...

The dampening field of Ktsis itself is also a poorly thought out plot contrivance. It is supposed to suppress all aetheric power for the creations inside of Ktsis when the emergency is invoked, and they go on to add that anybody or thing that's not the Elpis Staff will have their powers dampened. OK. Sure. Doesn't make sense that they'd have it dampen Convocation superiors, but ok! An excuse for the WoL to have to party up with Emet, Venat, and Hyth. Cool. Except it should dampened the lionshare of the WoL's power which come from Aether, not Dynamis, and so they should be a complete wienie.

Forgiving that, we still beat Hermes at his transformed best, bringing him to his knees. He should have been put in restraints immediately, instead of having Emet-selch monologue while he caught his second wind. Hermes even turns his back on the four of them. Bumps on a log, all of them. The entire time that Hermes speaks and the Meteion speaks and starts walking forward.

Point being, the cutscene should have shown us the team giving it their all to stop and shackle Hermes and Meteion both. Even if Emet-selch couldn't disarm Kairos, lobbing magicks at it to SHOW that it would be fruitless would have made the most of the cutscene. Showing that Venat tried to restrain/catch/knock out of the sky Meteion instead of trying to out pace her within an enfeebling pseudo space would have shown that it was fruitless.

Instead we had five solid minutes of monologuing from two different villains, which in Etheirysian time is close to 1 hour and 40 minutes. And even if we ignore the time disparity for cutscene convenience, it's still a lot of dead time of our heroes being all subject to cutscene paralysis and incompetence.

Then when they do spring to action, there is yet MORE MONOLOGUING. Hythlodaeus telling us something we already know about how we need to keep our memories. Emet-selch being able to rupture the enfeebling pseudo space to get us out of it. Venat being able to materialize another Argos in secret.

Then begging the question, how does Meteion actually exit this pseudo space by merely flying up? Ktsis is not linked to the sky outside. It is a pseudo space. Can she perceive aetherial confluences and shatter them as well? Is the inside of Ktsis actually linking real locations on Etheirys in spite of the fact that Hythlodaeus explicitly calls attention to the fact that we are still inside of the building?

I did no omissions purposefully. That's you adding additional context to my actions, just like you're adding additional, unspoken things to the cutscenes themselves. That's the only skewing going on here, thanks.

[Dikatis]

No, what are you talking about? You're adding information that wasn't given. They did not talk about how or where Kairos was implemented routinely. They did not say that researchers just magick it out of the air. Like this is literally just the weakest form of foreshadowing, "Oh hey, by the way, we have a secret memory wiping device." To which Emet-selch then implies that not even Pashtarot knows about it, and that's kind of that Convocation seat's wheelhouse. And that makes two Convocation members unapprised of the goings on of Elpis, which really just points to another thing in Endwalker that beggars belief.

Because the Convocation isn't omniscient and Hermes has a habit of creating pet projects for his own use at Elpis? Neither was Meteion. What beggars belief? Not everyone reports their creations to the Bureau of the Architect. Venat's weapon is an original creation of hers that she didn't report in. Athena certainly didn't report her brainwashing spell. Even if Kairos isn't a creation everyone can use, Hermes is the master of Elpis and it absolutely makes sense that a device designed to make testing easier would be present for him to use at Elpis' most rigorous testing facility.

Sure, the power dampening field is a plot contrivance to justify the Duty Support option and prevent Emet-Selch and Venat from blasting their way straight to the roof. But if you're going to complain about monologuing you might as well complain about all of fiction since it's a story device used to expand upon villain motivations. I don't know what to say to you in that regard if your fixation is on everyone acting "logically".

In the end, Meteion's escape was inevitable because that's how the Final Days came about. We were just there to witness it.

[Vyrerus]

In the end, Meteion's escape was inevitable because that's how the Final Days came about. We were just there to witness it.

If it was inevitable, it should be made to be believable that it was inevitable. Efforts outlined above should have been shown and defeated within the scene.

As it stands, the fact that Venat can precision materialize a second Argos to save the WoL from their fall means she could have materialized another Argos ahead of Meteion and caught her.

Cutscenes revolving around pivotal events shouldn't be careless. If we were wrapped in chains for the majority of the monologuing, that would be one thing, but we were not.

[Swordsman]

It is passing strange that Kairos just happened to be at the very top of the research station, or that its use could just have it pop out at a moment's notice. Almost no information on it or how it works, either, other than the direct exposition about it nuking memories from people or an area. Plot Contrivance Ultimate, most assuredly.

In addition to plot contrivances such as Meteion, Dynamis, and Kairos, we also have Elidibus's projection being able to send the WoL to Elpis. In a cutscene, Elidibus says: "In glimpsing the Exarch's memories, not only did I make his summoning magick mine own-I also mastered the workings of this tower... As such, I believe I can deliver you unto the past. Unto that place and that precise moment." Lol, how unabashedly convenient it is that the EW story writers gave him this ability too.

ShB had plot contrivances too, such as the writers having Graha accidentally bring all the Scions to the first obviously for the purpose of allowing the audience to progress through the story alongside them, as well as the passage of time between the source and the first coincidentally being nearly equivalent to not over complicate time differences. But I forgive the writers for their plot contrivances in ShB because I actually enjoyed the ShB story, lmao.

[Boblawblah]

But I forgive the writers for their plot contrivances in ShB because I actually enjoyed the ShB story, lmao.

A good take....! Completely agree, we're more than willing to forgive things that we would normally speak out against if we actually enjoy something.

edit: I realized I didn't contribute anything other than saying I agree, so here's Venat!

[TheMightyMollusk]

Forgiving that, we still beat Hermes at his transformed best, bringing him to his knees. He should have been put in restraints immediately, instead of having Emet-selch monologue while he caught his second wind.

To be fair, we do this with major antagonists all the time throughout the entire game. Everyone has to get their big speech in before the story moves on.

[Souljacker]

To be fair, we do this with major antagonists all the time throughout the entire game. Everyone has to get their big speech in before the story moves on.

Which is terrible storytelling in itself - these folks are so dangerous they must be put down, but apparently not dangerous enough that anyone takes it seriously once we've 'completed' the battle.

There's a handful of folks at SE, I think, who really just want to make movies. So instead of moving the content along in a way that actually makes sense for the urgency of the situations, we end up listening to endless drivel as our characters, often in groups with other players, watch seemingly helplessly.

[Boblawblah]

It's a classic anime trope, the villain that has done unforgivable things, massacred millions, but suddenly after they're defeated, they have a long speech where we come to an understanding and realize that we're not all that different after all. It's why the turks in FFVII remake/rebirth are lovable rapscallions, despite being the cause of thousands of people dying, and Cloud trying to actually kill one of them is like this big deal.