Please stop alienating the playerbase with job total reworks

[Merrigan]

If you want to discuss bad faith, the only person who used the word "complicated" is you. You are the one who has decided to write off requests and suggestions as "unnecessarily complicated." So if you want to avoid bad faith, consider meeting people where they are and understanding their perspective perhaps. They are the group that feels they have lost something. You have not, and are in no danger of losing anything nor is the group you oppose advocating for you to be incapable of completing the content you are already actively participating in.

I also was not suggesting that literally every old player is asking for the same thing. I would like to believe that we can make casual statements and collectively understand what one another is talking about, or if there is confusion, simply asking for elaboration. "When you say 'old players,' do you mean everyone from before Shadowbringers?'" Yet I constantly am reminded that every statement needs its own footnotes paragraph to help explain nuance and colloquial discussion as to make sure nothing is misunderstood. Regardless... in order for players to feel upset about the loss of something, such as job elements, they have to have experienced those elements first. Meaning those players have to have been playing since at least Stormblood in order to have experienced those elements, which seems to be what the conversation is referencing when discussing "old players." That is why I used the term as such. Make no mistake though, that doesn't mean there aren't new players who feel the job design area is lacking. There have been players who have dropped by and stated as such before, that the further they got into FFXIV, the more they have recognized the flaws in its job design.

Once again, you don't really answer to the conversation. Please read it. I perfectly understand what you're saying, I agree with some points, but I don't agree at all about the fact that success metrics shouldn't matter - which was the point at the start.

To simplify : I don't think, no, that the old SMN playerbase (by extension, in this conversation "old player" = all those before the rework, at least that's how I understood it) should necessarily be consulted and/or be satisfied with its evolution. What should matter is the interest of the job. An objective that is not currently being met, we agree on that.

[BokoToloko]

Whenever the term "old player" to decry any change I always remember the people who cried over the loss of Greased Lightning for Monks, the class-defining, high skill ceiling buff that was maintained by... doing 1-2-3 as usual. That's where I remember that, yes, "old players" words shouldn't be taken at face value. Specially in this forums, where people often get "I" mixed with "We, the players". And this comes from someone who hated thehow DRK got ironically butchered in the expansions they were the signature job for, Shadowbringers to an edgier WAR and still can't get over the loss of HW's SCH.

My issues with SMN aren't the "oh noes, it's just so different and EZ". My issue with SMN is that, for all the halfway through rework, it's still stuck with a rigid rotation with the illusion of "choice" or "variety". The only "choice" you get is to skip Gemshine or Summons if Bahaenix is back up during periods of down time which is... lol. If they actually finish the rework properly (the offenders being mainly Gemshine, Egis still existing and Phoenix being pretty much Bahamut with a heal on top), the old SMN can burn in a pit fire for all I care. Old SMN was also a dumpster fire and people are growing so accustomed to the new one, they're starting to forget.

[Supersnow845]

^so your point can basically be boiled down to “if I like the changes to a job then the old players are wrong and can shove it but if I don’t like a change in a job then I’ll begrudgingly admit they have a point”

[BokoToloko]

^so your point can basically be boiled down to “if I like the changes to a job then the old players are wrong and can shove it but if I don’t like a change in a job then I’ll begrudgingly admit they have a point”

words shouldn't be taken at face value

Sounds like you missed the point where "old players" aren't inherently right or wrong but simply they're don't hold the absolute truth.

Also, not liking some of the reworks =/= begrudginly admitting the "old players" are right.

[strawberrycake]

"We shouldn;t listen to people who disagree with me" Sure.

[strawberrycake]

Whenever the term "old player" to decry any change I always remember the people who cried over the loss of Greased Lightning for Monks, the class-defining, high skill ceiling buff that was maintained by... doing 1-2-3 as usual.

So to this alone, you were either a god at maintaining uptime in savage and ultimate fights, or you have never touched either when they had to do that and have no clue what you're talking about.

[BokoToloko]

"We shouldn;t listen to people who disagree with me" Sure.

"If people don't blindly agree with me, they're dismissing my opiniopn"

Two can play this silly game.

So to this alone, you were either a god at maintaining uptime in savage and ultimate fights, or you have never touched either when they had to do that and have no clue what you're talking about.

Not going to bother with this one. IF you're so illustrious, then pray tell what difference did GL uptime make for monks compared to literally every other melee class, other than being punished considerably harder than other melees during downtimes. GL uptimes was one of the main complaints prior to rework but, apparently, that didn't seem to be the case according to you.

[Aravell]

This discussion has gotten out of hand. Nobody is saying that the old players are inherently correct, I'm stating that they have a lot more experience with the jobs and systems and their feedback should be considered when making changes. I did not say that everything they say has to be implemented without question.

It's like how when a company wants to put out a new product or make changes to a product, they will survey the older customers to see what they think before any changes are made. If you continue alienating the older users to cater to newer users, they will eventually get fed up and then they're gone. Losing users is never a good thing, no matter how anyone spins it.

The dev team should at least try to listen to the players and consider their feedback when making changes instead of just making whatever changes they want silently while saying "Meh, they would've quit anyway". That's my point.

[BokoToloko]

This discussion has gotten out of hand. Nobody is saying that the old players are inherently correct, I'm stating that they have a lot more experience with the jobs and systems and their feedback should be considered when making changes. I did not say that everything they say has to be implemented without question.

It's like how when a company wants to put out a new product or make changes to a product, they will survey the older customers to see what they think before any changes are made. If you continue alienating the older users to cater to newer users, they will eventually get fed up and then they're gone. Losing users is never a good thing, no matter how anyone spins it.

The dev team should at least try to listen to the players and consider their feedback when making changes instead of just making whatever changes they want silently while saying "Meh, they would've quit anyway". That's my point.

The problem of shielding with the older players excuse comes when that includes people whose biggest concerns were the "theme" or aesthetic and not the actual QoL and gameplay concerns because they didn't have to optimize their classes back then. And it is ALSO important to remember that older players too were the ones bringing up their concerns with the playstyle of classes that were reworked. Summoner and Monks weren't played because they were hard, they weren't played because they had atrocious flaws that discouraged players in all endgame scenes in light of more solid alternatives, like RDM was for SMN. Flaws that were stressed upon even at Heavensward, specially on MNK's side who was always treated as the neglected job. And, unlike BLU, those classes don't get to be the special snowflakes, because they are supposed to be used in current content.

Not only are older players not inherently correct. Posting an opinion under the guise that said opinion involves all older players is straight up disingenuous, when the voices that advocated for substantial changes in many of the classes that were reworked (not all of them, mind you) came precisely from older players too.

[rawker]

I, for one, have been one of those who have been alienated with such drastic changes. I stopped playing at around the end of Heavensward because adulting but when I got my s*** together, I am now replaying the game. And going back to SMN, boy I was so shocked and immediately switched jobs at how terrible the gameplay it has now than what I remembered how it used to.

So I watched videos of SMN from Stormblood to Shadowbringers and I must say that ShB SMN was the closest to what I envisioned SMN would be. Why the hell did they make it like this? Also with SCH... A certain job is well maintained, but the pet jobs scrapped over in favor of oversimplification?

Please SE. Bring back the pet system to ACN.