Please stop alienating the playerbase with job total reworks

[Aravell]

I'm asking sincerely, not to be sarcastic, and recognizing without question that many jobs could use a little extra thought in terms of design, but isn't that the sign of a successful rework?

I mean, from experience with MMORPGs: NO rework is appreciated. If we listen to the MMO fanbase in general, the job needs to retain its identity (which can mean anything and everything; Zofian talks, a little above, of colors for example as being an important identity base. Something I personally don't understand at all); but still undergo changes so that you don't die of boredom after playing the same character for 3 expansions. That's... Complicated. In fact, if we're honest: the original playerbase would certainly grumble no matter what they did, because beyond the design, there's also an attachment to the character that goes far beyond the rational appreciation of a rotation.

In the case of the summoner, it seems to me (and I could be wrong here) that the class is played more now. So it's rather a success from their point of view, regardless of whether the old-timers are angry or not.

I'm not talking about success metrics, I'm saying that none of their reworks were received well by the original playerbase of the job, and that's the problem.

You know how they can get a handle on what changes would make the playerbase of a job happy before they make any changes? Polling the players! Yes! They can actually ask the players what they enjoy about the job before making any changes that would make them unhappy instead of just changing things without saying anything and then saying "Meh, the players will complain anyway".

There were many avenues they could've taken SMN instead of this undercooked abomination. If they learned that the players enjoyed DoTs, they could continue a pseudo-DoT job with the current design by having several aether siphon skills that players have to manage that will slowly fill a gauge until you can summon the flashy primals that we have now. If they learned that the players enjoyed egi management, they could make the summons flashy but have them stay after being summoned so the players can manage their attacks. That's only 2 ways to have the current visuals of SMN while having aspects of what people enjoyed about old SMN, there's never a need to completely delete a playstyle from the game on a whim.

[Zofian]

I will never play Summoner again until it is restored. It was my second class/job that I took on before even reaching the praetorium (which I also will never play again along with meridianum since their identities were ruined- they should be restored to being 8 players at the very least- these 2 duties are/were the first time a player sees/saw 'Full Party', it's kind of a big deal with the story- thus I have also 'lost' MSQ roulette from my game and actually miss doing these) and used Summoner the vast majority of the time up to and through Shadowbringers, then it got deleted from the game and replaced with a joke that bears no resemblance. Ever since the replacement there has been a hole in my character's story, like my character has amnesia and only a few fragments of memories of what happened before Endwalker. The game itself will never be whole for me again until Summoner is brought back.

Also, Gunbreaker, which I also don't play anymore because it was ruined by increasing Bloodfest's recast from 90 seconds to 120, meaning you now have to do 2 or 3 more full cycles of 1-2-3 slash during that 30 extra seconds to build cartridge fills, making the job a whole lot more boring and grindy. Essentially Gunbreaker was turned into Red Mage without the magic.

Machinist was apparently already ruined before I started playing it, as I found out during levelling that the animations get replaced with ridiculous stuff. I loved Machinist before that started happening. Machinist is another job I don't play, but mostly because Reaper has taken over as my 'lazy job' that I use for smashing roulettes and other duties on cruise control/chill time. I liked the workshop/brown leather/factory work vibe that was going on in the early MCH days, hopefully MCH can be changed and maybe split into two different jobs, with Machinist going back to it's roots and more of it with tool-based skills and basicer technical stuff- then the crazy animations can be taken out and put on a new and different job.

Astrologian I am still new to, but stopped playing it around level 50 because I don't feel or see a connection between the card skills and the rest of the skills. I appreciate the distinction of Astro's 2 regen skills also giving some instant hp aswell, which WHM's doesn't do, so that's something good. Other than that though, I feel it's a modified white mage that needs more frantic button presses more often for no visible benefit (and the buffs are only 15 seconds!). I cannot see the extra damage my buffs are doing so it's like working overtime for no pay (or someone else getting paid and credited for my work!). Keyboard and mouse users probably don't experience this factor the way controller users do- it's harder and irregular to have to constantly target the right type party member for an extra reason than usual on controller (for a healer). I'm hoping that whatever rework is coming, gives Astrologian what I feel would be a proper identity, but I doubt it. I like the idea of using cards, but it's difficult to chew and flavourless in it's current form. It doesn't really matter if you apply a card to the wrong player, it's all the same really and virtually a placebo. However I respect that some people may like it as-is and may hate a potential full rework, so there's that.

Sage is good but I already read ahead and found out that the attack skills change colour from red to blue almost instantly, at level 72, so I won't be levelling mine at all ever (and in a game where you don't get to make many choices at all, choosing to not level a job has thus become a decision I *can* make, that gives a character some identity). Why would you make the job more bland? In a game where most of the effects are already blue. Will settle for a change where they now become purple, green, orange, yellow, pink. Anything but blue or white really.

Every other job is 99% fine don't mess with them. Be wary of continuing the path of ripping out the game's foundations (any part of the game) as longer term players will indeed become increasingly alienated by the game as a whole. The graphical rework by itself may have unintended consequences, but I am optimistic that it won't.

[Supersnow845]

^if you liked SGE but don’t like the fact that all their skills are blue then try SCH, quite a similar class (though more complex) but SCH’s primary colours are yellow (GCD’s) and green (oGCD’s) with some orange thrown in there

It’s probably the most visually distinct healer compared to “you took your name too literally” WHM, “if I was green I would die by Effiel 65” SGE and “someone forgot to tell me that the sky is blue because of the sun and space is actually black” AST

[Merrigan]

Polling the players!

False good idea. Polling isn't going anywhere :

- I guarantee you, most people won't answer, because those king of "studies" would have to be done on internet... And let's not lie to ourselves : the forum isn't representative of the playerbase.
- SMN main would answer, but not the people who never tried the job. Why the hell would they ? I mean, if you never played it, how are you going to say "yeeeeah, I would prefer to go for the dots" ? You can't.
- Trolls. Just imagine people like Titanmen answering this king of poll *shiver*

To answer your post in general, and not just this tiny bit I just quoted : I'm a little disturbed by the "old fanbase has to be satisfied first" mentality. That's why I don't agree with your choice to ignore success metrics - they matters, even if we don't always like it. Experienced players don't have the priority, and shouldn't have it.

[Aravell]

To answer your post in general, and not just this tiny bit I just quoted : I'm a little disturbed by the "old fanbase has to be satisfied first" mentality. That's why I don't agree with your choice to ignore success metrics - they matters, even if we don't always like it. Experienced players don't have the priority, and shouldn't have it.

And you're suggesting that the older players should be completely stomped on and cast to the side just to attract new players to the job? I can't agree with that at all, that kind of mentality of "metrics above all" disturbs me in turn. Agree to disagree.

Also, you are heavily misrepresenting my point. I never said the old players should be more important than the new players, I said they should be considered when a job is to be changed. Also, your mentality of metrics above everything puts new players above the older players, which goes against your very principles, unless you're fine with older players being placed last in priority, just not new players.

[Merrigan]

And you're suggesting that the older players should be completely stomped on and cast to the side just to attract new players to the job? I can't agree with that at all, that kind of mentality of "metrics above all" disturbs me in turn. Agree to disagree.

Also, you are heavily misrepresenting my point. I never said the old players should be more important than the new players, I said they should be considered when a job is to be changed. Also, your mentality of metrics above everything puts new players above the older players, which goes against your very principles, unless you're fine with older players being placed last in priority, just not new players.

We're going to go round in circles here, so I won't answer everything (everyone is entitled to their own opinion here, after all, and even if I don't agree with you I can see where you're coming from) but just to finish on one point: on certain aspects, I do feel that "old" players should not be listened to. There are plenty of examples in the history of MMORPGs where listening to players has been a bloody disaster.

[TheDustyOne]

We're going to go round in circles here, so I won't answer everything (everyone is entitled to their own opinion here, after all, and even if I don't agree with you I can see where you're coming from) but just to finish on one point: on certain aspects, I do feel that "old" players should not be listened to. There are plenty of examples in the history of MMORPGs where listening to players has been a bloody disaster.

I highly disagree, it was listening to players that brought this game back from the disaster that was 1.0. It's the older players that gave the game its community to begin with, and understand it better than most players. Alienating old players for the potential (not guarantee) of appeasing new players ends up leaving people bitter.

It ultimately is up to the devs to try and make good decisions around player feedback; typically when it comes to game testing, players are very good at highlighting what is wrong with a game, but not necessarily in offering solutions (not always, it depends on the solution and feasibility of implementing that solution). If we just decide that older players should not be listened to, you lose most of that informed feedback.

That doesn't mean new players don't have important feedback either, they offer a fresher perspective that many vets lost long ago, and as such can point out different problems that are just as valid. But they also lack the experience for why something is implemented the way it is. Either way you can't throw out one side of feedback, both new and old need listening to.

[ty_taurus]

We're going to go round in circles here, so I won't answer everything (everyone is entitled to their own opinion here, after all, and even if I don't agree with you I can see where you're coming from) but just to finish on one point: on certain aspects, I do feel that "old" players should not be listened to. There are plenty of examples in the history of MMORPGs where listening to players has been a bloody disaster.

I want evidence that the over simplification of job design has had any positive impact at all on the game's popularity and population. Because the game's growth is far more attributed to its marketing budget and MSQ. I have never seen a single person talking about FFXIV and go, "You should play it! It's such a good game because it's so incredibly simple and far less dynamic than in the past, which was what kept me away from it in the first place."

All I ever see is people talking about when praising the game is its story and nothing else. Is there any decisive evidence that the game would be less popular if everything about Shadowbringers and Endwalker was the same except that the game had maintain the same general level of job complexity from Stormblood or even Heavensward? Prove to me that keeping the job design depth that "old" players miss would be detrimental to the game's ongoing success. Because unless you can show me decisive evidence that the over simplification is what generated more new players for each expansion, then I cannot be convinced that Endwalker wouldn't have been more at least a tiny bit more successful retaining more "old" players who have gradually abandoned the game because of its simplification by maintaining the general levels of complexity from before while still pulling in every single person who has joined since then with its praise-worthy story and increased marketing budget.

[Merrigan]

I want evidence that the over simplification of job design has had any positive impact at all on the game's popularity and population. Because the game's growth is far more attributed to its marketing budget and MSQ. I have never seen a single person talking about FFXIV and go, "You should play it! It's such a good game because it's so incredibly simple and far less dynamic than in the past, which was what kept me away from it in the first place."

All I ever see is people talking about when praising the game is its story and nothing else. Is there any decisive evidence that the game would be less popular if everything about Shadowbringers and Endwalker was the same except that the game had maintain the same general level of job complexity from Stormblood or even Heavensward? Prove to me that keeping the job design depth that "old" players miss would be detrimental to the game's ongoing success. Because unless you can show me decisive evidence that the over simplification is what generated more new players for each expansion, then I cannot be convinced that Endwalker wouldn't have been more at least a tiny bit more successful retaining more "old" players who have gradually abandoned the game because of its simplification by maintaining the general levels of complexity from before while still pulling in every single person who has joined since then with its praise-worthy story and increased marketing budget.

I wasn't talking about simplification. The discussion was more about the positive aspect of asking old player about the new design a job should get.

[strawberrycake]

We're going to go round in circles here, so I won't answer everything (everyone is entitled to their own opinion here, after all, and even if I don't agree with you I can see where you're coming from) but just to finish on one point: on certain aspects, I do feel that "old" players should not be listened to. There are plenty of examples in the history of MMORPGs where listening to players has been a bloody disaster.

I disagree wholely based on the fact of how bias works in the case of newer players. My s/o started playing at the end of Stormblood, they had no real time with that expansion or HW in it's prime and only really had the newer experiences of the game to gauge their interest, they then went and did the research to see what was differnt on their own, and came to a lot of conclusions that are on par with how a lot of the player base feels with the over simplification. Many of the voices that say the oversimplification is fine have not done that research as they don't care to and do not understand why we as vet players take issue with it, as they only know ShB and EW and they only know this way of approaching the game.

Many of us have been here when the system required more investment to get anything out of it and aren't calling for it to go back to that time, but if a vet player is trying to explain and show the issues f the current system and how it's becoming a massive joke to even play high end content, then we need to not exclude them. While some may be bias'd to better times, it's not all of us and in most case that bias is based within proof that things worked and were changed fo the worse.