XIV EW Job-Gameplay is Terrible... Why?

[ty_taurus]

Yoshida has the philosophy that gamers want everything immediately, which he isn't entirely wrong about. A lot of players are impatient and want the cool thing to happen quickly. FFXVI is designed with that belief in mind hence why it's all flash but generally rather lacking in substance. FFXIV is much the same. If played in small doses, everything on offer is pretty solid. A shallow or simplistic gameplay system will last longer the less you interact with it. Pokemon has more or less built its entire existence on proving that theory. Unfortunately, that philosophy in a game that wants to keep you around becomes stale the more you engage with it.

Except competitive Pokemon is actually quite deep and complex. Scarlet and Violet are literally glorified freshman-year game design student projects with the polish of a rotting wooden cabin, but the actual competitive gameplay experience has retained the same level of depth and complexity, if not more from what new moves, Pokemon, and mechanics have been added.

[strawberrycake]

Except competitive Pokemon is actually quite deep and complex. Scarlet and Violet are literally glorified freshman-year game design student projects with the polish of a rotting wooden cabin, but the actual competitive gameplay experience has retained the same level of depth and complexity, if not more from what new moves, Pokemon, and mechanics have been added.

This is true. But most of the pokemon playerbase isn't the old school vets from back in the 90s who play competitive now a days and do nuzlockes and pokemon rom hacks, it's the latest generation of young kids, who are playing cus cute animals that fight. The main Audience plays it because ti's a shallow kids game. They may grow up or pivot while they;re young, and move into the more or less niche competitive scene and other sub communitires of pokemon.

So they're right, Pokemon proved shallow gameplay can and will sell.

[ty_taurus]

This is true. But most of the pokemon playerbase isn't the old school vets from back in the 90s who play competitive now a days and do nuzlockes and pokemon rom hacks, it's the latest generation of young kids, who are playing cus cute animals that fight. The main Audience plays it because ti's a shallow kids game. They may grow up or pivot while they;re young, and move into the more or less niche competitive scene and other sub communitires of pokemon.

So they're right, Pokemon proved shallow gameplay can and will sell.

I don't really agree. Yes, the target demographic of Pokemon is young children, which is precisely why the games are very shallow on the surface. They want someone who's as young as perhaps 6 or 7 to be able to play through the story without getting hit with difficulty spikes they cannot surmount (which also brings into question the resistance against voice-acting since some kids at that age still can't read, or have limited reading comprehension, but whatever). But to circle back to that oh-so-subtle statement I made about "on the surface," that doesn't mean the depth and complexity doesn't exist.

Meanwhile, FFXIV, a game that has a target demographic of people who at least can purchase a subscription fee, so at minimum 18 years or older, is directly erasing depth and removing it from the game. Job design is being demolished at every turn to make the gameplay experience simple by force. Pokemon would would be more analogous to Heavensward. Because for as much as Heavesnward has a reputation of being the most complex that job design has ever been, nearly nothing in the game demanded you engage with that complexity at that level.

Similarly, in Pokemon, you can EV train your Pokemon. You can Breed perfect IV Pokemon. You can seek out Pokemon with hidden abilities. These are all things that you have the option to do even though nothing in the main story asks you to do it. Does that not sound similar to Heavensward FFXIV? Or even Stormblood?

Endwalker would be like Let's Go Pikachu and Let's Go Eevee, games that explicitly removed many different aspects of Pokemon's complexity. Abilities? Gone. Mega Evolution? Gone. Like 80% of the Pokedex? Gone. Sound familiar?

[strawberrycake]

I don't really agree. Yes, the target demographic of Pokemon is young children, which is precisely why the games are very shallow on the surface. They want someone who's as young as perhaps 6 or 7 to be able to play through the story without getting hit with difficulty spikes they cannot surmount (which also brings into question the resistance against voice-acting since some kids at that age still can't read, or have limited reading comprehension, but whatever). But to circle back to that oh-so-subtle statement I made about "on the surface," that doesn't mean the depth and complexity doesn't exist.

Meanwhile, FFXIV, a game that has a target demographic of people who at least can purchase a subscription fee, so at minimum 18 years or older, is directly erasing depth and removing it from the game. Job design is being demolished at every turn to make the gameplay experience simple by force. Pokemon would would be more analogous to Heavensward. Because for as much as Heavesnward has a reputation of being the most complex that job design has ever been, nearly nothing in the game demanded you engage with that complexity at that level.

Similarly, in Pokemon, you can EV train your Pokemon. You can Breed perfect IV Pokemon. You can seek out Pokemon with hidden abilities. These are all things that you have the option to do even though nothing in the main story asks you to do it. Does that not sound similar to Heavensward FFXIV? Or even Stormblood?

Endwalker would be like Let's Go Pikachu and Let's Go Eevee, games that explicitly removed many different aspects of Pokemon's complexity. Abilities? Gone. Mega Evolution? Gone. Like 80% of the Pokedex? Gone. Sound familiar?

All of tose things existed, but could you walk up to anyone back then and talk to them about that or did everyone who played pokemon, or even remotely knew about it just see it as a kids game? The point is rather simple, Game Freak doesn't market all of that or talk about it. they just sell cute pokemon and maybe one big competitive feature that most people won't think twice about. Like SE, Gamefreak sells simplicity to a fault. It's semantics to talk about the rest when again, everything else about pokemon is agressively niche, the wider audience isn't losing out on much for not playing into those things like how we're losing out if the majority of people keep refusing to acknowledge how XIV works and functions at it's core.

The inital sales of a single player game matters more then the people who stick around for official tournaments. So the children matter more. With an MMO, long term subs matter more then launch day numbers, so this is a bigger issue with XIV selling simplicity like Pokemon.

[ty_taurus]

All of tose things existed, but could you walk up to anyone back then and talk to them about that or did everyone who played pokemon, or even remotely knew about it just see it as a kids game? The point is rather simple, Game Freak doesn't market all of that or talk about it. they just sell cute pokemon and maybe one big competitive feature that most people won't think twice about. Like SE, Gamefreak sells simplicity to a fault. It's semantics to talk about the rest when again, everything else about pokemon is agressively niche, the wider audience isn't losing out on much for not playing into those things like how we're losing out if the majority of people keep refusing to acknowledge how XIV works and functions at it's core.

The inital sales of a single player game matters more then the people who stick around for official tournaments. So the children matter more. With an MMO, long term subs matter more then launch day numbers, so this is a bigger issue with XIV selling simplicity like Pokemon.

You're missing the point. Just because the complexity and depth were not the main focus of the Pokemon franchise does not invalidate the existing of said complexity and depth. In fact, that complexity and depth existed in spite of the game's lack of focus on it. So the game was able to exist appealing to both the kids and casual Pokemon players who don't care about the competitive scene as well as the people who are interested in the deeper, more complex competitive scene. That is my point.

Why can't FFXIV, a game designed for a much older audience, do the same? Why can't it sell its more casual story mode and easier game modes while still offering jobs that have a level of depth and complexity not required to get through said story mode and easier game modes, but that players have the freedom to engage with at their leisure? Your point would make sense if every new generation, Pokemon sought to erase complexity and difficulty. While the story mode has generally become easier, and grinding has gotten faster, the competitive scene is if anything more complex than it has ever been before, not less.

[strawberrycake]

You're missing the point. Just because the complexity and depth were not the main focus of the Pokemon franchise does not invalidate the existing of said complexity and depth. In fact, that complexity and depth existed in spite of the game's lack of focus on it. So the game was able to exist appealing to both the kids and casual Pokemon players who don't care about the competitive scene as well as the people who are interested in the deeper, more complex competitive scene. That is my point.

Why can't FFXIV, a game designed for a much older audience, do the same? Why can't it sell its more casual story mode and easier game modes while still offering jobs that have a level of depth and complexity not required to get through said story mode and easier game modes, but that players have the freedom to engage with at their leisure? Your point would make sense if every new generation, Pokemon sought to erase complexity and difficulty. While the story mode has generally become easier, and grinding has gotten faster, the competitive scene is if anything more complex than it has ever been before, not less.

See what I just said to Forsaken Roe my guy. All we're saying is you can brute force both games, and thats bad given the VAST differences because between them xD

[ForsakenRoe]

I feel like the fact there's the type matchup table in Pokemon to learn means it's already above current job complexity for... most jobs, really

And then you have extra things on top of that, like weather effects, STAB bonuses, held items... Yeh, even at it's 'most casual' level, Pokemon offers quite a lot of complexities

In FFXIV terms, having the complexity balance shifted away from jobs and into encounter design, imo, is like having the complexity of Pokemon be shifted out of how many Pokemon are in the dex, abilities, moves, held items, all that jazz, and said complexity being moved into the 'gimmick' of the generation. Be that Mega Evolutions, Gigantamax, or Tera-whatsit. Yeh, it looks cool when your Pokemon gets really big, or changes type, but is it worth it if it comes at the cost of having less overall moves to choose from learning?

[strawberrycake]

I feel like the fact there's the type matchup table in Pokemon to learn means it's already above current job complexity for... most jobs, really

And then you have extra things on top of that, like weather effects, STAB bonuses, held items... Yeh, even at it's 'most casual' level, Pokemon offers quite a lot of complexities

In FFXIV terms, having the complexity balance shifted away from jobs and into encounter design, imo, is like having the complexity of Pokemon be shifted out of how many Pokemon are in the dex, abilities, moves, held items, all that jazz, and said complexity being moved into the 'gimmick' of the generation. Be that Mega Evolutions, Gigantamax, or Tera-whatsit. Yeh, it looks cool when your Pokemon gets really big, or changes type, but is it worth it if it comes at the cost of having less overall moves to choose from learning?

So I'm looking at it like this right, for a 6-7 year old They aren't seeing all of that, some are, but not most, and that great, but in XIV, we have gotten as simple as possible and heres the crazy part, the comparison is possible becauase with how simple XIV is, a 40 year old who can drive and file his own taxes, can;t understand how to tankswap. Both games are at the apex of Extremely simple and a 40 year old who put his kids through college is comperable to a 7 year old whos just mashing A and laughing at big shiny monsters with no futher thoughts. Yes there is depth in pokemon, no there isn't depth in XIV, but the problem is we're treating a an adult like a child. Thats the point of the analogy. XD