Healers are punished too hard for dying

[INovemI]

I actually think recovery is perfectly feasible for healers in fights, I think my problem is that if the healers die the party loses its rez sources outside of some specific DPS jobs. I'm not necessarily against it wiping the party, but it is frustrating for this to greatly slow down clear speeds without actually dooming runs. It would be nice for there to be more options in the overall party for rezzing fallen players. I really like how in Guild Wars 2, everyone can rez at basically any time if they are in the correct position and are ready to invest the time. I think infusing these slowdown moments with greater recovery options for the team would improve these types of situations. Granted I have no endgame experience in FF14 so you can take my opinion on this with a grain of salt lol

[INovemI]

That makes sense! Thanks for no spoilers :3

Still I do hope there are some better comeback mechanics introduced for when the healers drop but everyone else survives, at least in lower difficulty duties rather than savages and ultimates. Right now it feels like the healers making mistakes while learning mechanics (especially mechanics that involve people getting pushed off of platforms like with Titan and Leviathan) is very punishing to the party as a whole, at least from my experience with ARR Extremes where the healers getting dropped almost universally instantly ends the run in Duty Finder groups when it feels like it really shouldn't and it just is kinda wasting everyone's time. It just feels like when a wipe is going to happen it should be faster, and if the team can recover that should be faster too. Too much downtime. It makes me really wish there was a difficulty between Hard and Extreme because the gap between those two difficulties is huge at least in the older content I'm familiar with. Hard is completely effortless but then Extremes can eat sprouts alive, especially when there isn't someone in the party with preexisting knowledge of the mechanics. Legit a difference in clear speed between 0 wipes and 30+ in some cases.

[Supersnow845]

That makes sense! Thanks for no spoilers :3

Still I do hope there are some better comeback mechanics introduced for when the healers drop but everyone else survives, at least in lower difficulty duties rather than savages and ultimates. Right now it feels like the healers making mistakes while learning mechanics (especially mechanics that involve people getting pushed off of platforms like with Titan and Leviathan) is very punishing to the party as a whole, at least from my experience with ARR Extremes where the healers getting dropped almost universally instantly ends the run in Duty Finder groups when it feels like it really shouldn't and it just is kinda wasting everyone's time. It just feels like when a wipe is going to happen it should be faster, and if the team can recover that should be faster too. Too much downtime. It makes me really wish there was a difficulty between Hard and Extreme because the gap between those two difficulties is huge at least in the older content I'm familiar with. Hard is completely effortless but then Extremes can eat sprouts alive, especially when there isn't someone in the party with preexisting knowledge of the mechanics. Legit a difference in clear speed between 0 wipes and 30+ in some cases.

You shouldn’t be doing extremes in DF, you should be progging them with dedicated parties in PF who are prepared to prog them till you clear

Relying on someone knowing the fight is part of the problem

[INovemI]

You shouldn’t be doing extremes in DF, you should be progging them with dedicated parties in PF who are prepared to prog them till you clear

Relying on someone knowing the fight is part of the problem

Believe it or not, this is actually significantly slower than simply using the Duty Finder. I usually get a DF clear in the time it takes simply to get a party together who wants to do it sync'd in PF. It's also often significantly less fun, with many expecting runs to be unsync'd or with someone who joins and knows the mechs so well that there's not any group problem solving and the only thing a clear depends upon is executing the fight properly. It's more fun to learn the mechanics by wiping a couple of times and figuring it out as a team than to have some guy look up the guide ahead of time and roll it all out in a chat message.

[Supersnow845]

Believe it or not, this is actually significantly slower than simply using the Duty Finder. I usually get a DF clear in the time it takes simply to get a party together who wants to do it sync'd in PF. It's also often significantly less fun, with many expecting runs to be unsync'd or with someone who joins and knows the mechs so well that there's not any group problem solving and the only thing a clear depends upon is executing the fight properly. It's more fun to learn the mechanics by wiping a couple of times and figuring it out as a team than to have some guy look up the guide ahead of time and roll it all out in a chat message.

That’s why you specifically put up blind learning parties, so you learn with a party that wants to learn. You don’t drag unwitting players through extremes in DF, that’s not what DF is designed for, even then half the time a blind DF party is just being led by a mentor who vaguely remembers the mechanics anyway

[INovemI]

That’s why you specifically put up blind learning parties, so you learn with a party that wants to learn. You don’t drag unwitting players through extremes in DF, that’s not what DF is designed for, even then half the time a blind DF party is just being led by a mentor who vaguely remembers the mechanics anyway

What do you mean that's not what Duty Finder is designed for? If it wasn't "designed" to be able to use Duty Finder to clear the content, then it wouldn't be there and it wouldn't be in roulette. Usually 6/8 players in DF Extreme are Sprouts, never seen it be less than 5/8. Are these usually led by mentors who vaguely remember the mechanics? Yes, and that's not a problem. I have had successful clears in 90% of all of the Extreme DFs I've ever done, and I have cleared all of ARR's Extremes in DF at least twice. Party Finder is significantly slower at getting clears and there are very few sprouts - especially in the window between the last content drop of an expansion and the next one - who are in the Party Finder looking to complete these duties, let alone are actively looking to blind prog Extremes with other sprouts. I don't know about Heavensward and onward Extremes but I can confirm from my own experience, including actively trying to use Party Finder only to be all but forced into doing it unsync'd by the people who joined, ARR Extremes are universally best completed via the Duty Finder. This content is far too old to fill parties in a timely manner without Mentor Roulette, and the integration of Mentors is often critical to clear duties with more abstract mechanics (particularly Ramuh and Leviathan, which are the only two Extremes other than Titan I have ever failed to clear... and that's just cause Titan's the hardest one to execute correctly by far).

[Supersnow845]

What do you mean that's not what Duty Finder is designed for? If it wasn't "designed" to be able to use Duty Finder to clear the content, then it wouldn't be there and it wouldn't be in roulette. Usually 6/8 players in DF Extreme are Sprouts, never seen it be less than 5/8. Are these usually led by mentors who vaguely remember the mechanics? Yes, and that's not a problem. I have had successful clears in 90% of all of the Extreme DFs I've ever done, and I have cleared all of ARR's Extremes in DF at least twice. Party Finder is significantly slower at getting clears and there are very few sprouts - especially in the window between the last content drop of an expansion and the next one - who are in the Party Finder looking to complete these duties, let alone are actively looking to blind prog Extremes with other sprouts. I don't know about Heavensward and onward Extremes but I can confirm from my own experience, including actively trying to use Party Finder only to be all but forced into doing it unsync'd by the people who joined, ARR Extremes are universally best completed via the Duty Finder. This content is far too old to fill parties in a timely manner without Mentor Roulette, and the integration of Mentors is often critical to clear duties with more abstract mechanics (particularly Ramuh and Leviathan, which are the only two Extremes other than Titan I have ever failed to clear... and that's just cause Titan's the hardest one to execute correctly by far).

This isn’t the thread for this discussion, we’ve derailed the topic enough

I will just say what you are doing won’t work going forward because that’s not how extremes are designed, the mentor roulette including extremes has always been controversial but in general it just teaches the wrong habits, you can get by in ARR extremes because of gear and skill bloat but it won’t work anywhere past that. If you really want to do the extremes you need to learn to use PF and to tap into the MINE discords if you want to do said content, forcing the mentor roulette to pop it really isn’t a long term strategy

[Valence]

You know what could help healers recover better without having to buff their already crazy mp positive rotations? Party support.

Just sayin'...

What do you mean that's not what Duty Finder is designed for? If it wasn't "designed" to be able to use Duty Finder to clear the content, then it wouldn't be there and it wouldn't be in roulette. Usually 6/8 players in DF Extreme are Sprouts, never seen it be less than 5/8. Are these usually led by mentors who vaguely remember the mechanics? Yes, and that's not a problem. I have had successful clears in 90% of all of the Extreme DFs I've ever done, and I have cleared all of ARR's Extremes in DF at least twice. Party Finder is significantly slower at getting clears and there are very few sprouts - especially in the window between the last content drop of an expansion and the next one - who are in the Party Finder looking to complete these duties, let alone are actively looking to blind prog Extremes with other sprouts. I don't know about Heavensward and onward Extremes but I can confirm from my own experience, including actively trying to use Party Finder only to be all but forced into doing it unsync'd by the people who joined, ARR Extremes are universally best completed via the Duty Finder. This content is far too old to fill parties in a timely manner without Mentor Roulette, and the integration of Mentors is often critical to clear duties with more abstract mechanics (particularly Ramuh and Leviathan, which are the only two Extremes other than Titan I have ever failed to clear... and that's just cause Titan's the hardest one to execute correctly by far).

It's not that DF isn't designed to accomodate high end and challenging content. It does work, especially in ARR endgame because all the new players are still clueless about their own regional quirks, and extreme trials also still have sidequests asking for completing them (unlike later where it will only be to unlock them). Mentor roulette also helps although it can be cursed depending on the mentors you get.

The main reason why DF isn't used for challenging content is a cultural one. NA and EU just use PF, form their parties there and go with control over what they want to do, add a PF description on prog points, specific strats, etc.

JP just uses the DF in a more anonymous group approach, where everybody is expected to follow one specific strat, get in, clear, get out. If you played on JP for instance you'd probably not use PF much for endgame content.

[INovemI]

...

If that's the case, why are you continuing? I'm not saying this isn't a tangent, but I'm going to respond.

I didn't say it would keep working (I said I didn't know if it would), I said it's the best way to tackle ARR Extremes because... it is. Also, don't you think it's weird that half of your solution is for new players to rely on resources that aren't in the game? Saying to use MINE Discord's isn't a solution, most players don't know they exist. Moreover, it can be difficult to fill groups WITH them, especially if you only want to do them sync'd with echo so you can just see the mechs without high difficulty. I can tell you that 100% that if the Coils were in Roulette, I would be using DF to clear instead. Trying to clear them WITH the PF and MINE Discord's has been a task and a half, trying to fill up a sync gets harder and harder the deeper you go. It shouldn't take 4+ hours to fill up a party to complete a piece of story content without unsync, but it does. Whether something teaches wrong habits or not, the priority is obviously clearing the content in a legit way with an ok amount of time commitment (and only the mech spoilers needed to clear). DF is quite simply - to a point - the fastest way to accomplish this. Until a time rewards are introduced to incentivize helping new players complete old content, this will be the case. I know that Wonderous Tales exists, but I can confirm it's clearly not enough of an incentive for helping sprouts with old stuff so I would like for the devs to introduce something that channels mentors there.

...

I have actually found that Roulette has actually done a good job in my experience. I've never really run into toxic mentors and usually there's at least one of them who knows the fight enough to get us a clear, including harder stuff.

Anyway, I can't really attest to culture, but I think this expectation to use PF would work better if there was a part of the MSQ where you need to use it. Because there's no piece of content in the game which is on the MSQ that requires you to use PF, the tutorial for PF doesn't stick. The only time most people learn to use PF is when they run into content where it is necessary, such as Coils. I'd say I care more about the story than the average new player so completing Coils is important to me, but for most players it's missable despite how important it is. But most importantly, this means there's a big portion of this games players which does not even know how to use PF. You need to be forced to learn how to use PF in order to understand how it works, the game actively teaches you to rely on DF for everything. So in the end you can say people should rely on PF, but if that's going to be the case then the devs need to do a better job of onboarding players into that format and reward more experienced players for filling PFs for old content.

[Absurdity]

The main reason why DF isn't used for challenging content is a cultural one. NA and EU just use PF, form their parties there and go with control over what they want to do, add a PF description on prog points, specific strats, etc.

JP just uses the DF in a more anonymous group approach, where everybody is expected to follow one specific strat, get in, clear, get out. If you played on JP for instance you'd probably not use PF much for endgame content.

Last time I checked even JP only uses DF for actually clearing a fight and it is expected that everyone knows what to do when queing up through DF. They still use party finder for learning.