/r/ffxivdiscussion: Has FFXIV had any major retcons or plot holes in the story?

[Jeeqbit]

The only one that I remember which I believe they even took out of the game was during the scene with Garuda. She states that she cannot temper you because you already belong to another, seeming to hint that Hydaelyn has tempered us and that is how we are granted the power of the echo.

What actually happened was Garuda tried to temper you, failed and was confused why it didn't work. She never said you belonged to another. Instead, her attempt to temper you was reflected by Hydaelyn's shield, causing her to destroy herself, granting you the last crystal (the wind crystal) needed to complete the ward spell.

It is actually interesting that the Blessing of Light successfully repelled a wind attack prior to having a wind crystal, but maybe it can be argued that having a crystal that wind is weak against (ice) helped.

It is still mentioned directly in ARR that The Echo is what protects you from tempering anyway, although it could be argued that anyone with The Echo can have the blessing as well and therefore the scions may have been confused over the difference themselves.

Given how we told her everything about the future when she asked us to, but didn't tell others when it would stop the genocide we'd just caused, I'd say the WoL is tempered by her.

I used to think that because of how Midgardsormr removed the "tempering" from us. It turns out now that what he removed was her warding barrier spell that protected us from virtually anything, to see how we managed without it.

After all, people are claiming the Ascians are mindless slaves due to Zodiark

Well even in the cutscene, these Ascians are praying to Zodiark, saying "mighty Zodiark, hear are prayer". The Ascians would never do any such thing. They see themselves as mightier than anyone and anything. Even in Elpis, they saw their creations as something to be discarded without empathy. Yet suddenly, they bow before one of their creations and see this creation as superior to them? That is completely unlike the Ascians.

If the Ascians are servants to the dark, then we are servants to the light in the same way.

Of course, the definition of a primal is they are summoned with a desire to recruit others to one's cause. Hydaelyn is referred to as a primal at a certain point in the game, which does beg the question of if Hydaelyn is recruiting others to her cause via tempering. The evidence for this is Hydaelyn's call, which not everyone is able to hear, but when they do, they are recruited to her cause.

However, it is also interesting that she applies the warding spell to those who hear her call, because that would in theory protect them from tempering including from herself. But by then, it could be too late as well.

We could argue that if we were aetherially corrupted by the Light, then this may have been resolved in Shadowbringers when we put our Light up against Emet-Selch's Darkness, assuming we were able to release all the excess Light she'd been corrupting us with as well.

An argument against her being a primal, though, is the fact she met the scions in person and did not seem to temper them, when normally they'd not dare face a primal due to the tempering risk.

Heck, Minfilia even says something along those lines when serving as the Voice of the Mother, doesn't she?

In that situation, though, I think Minfilia is definitely tempered. It's exactly like when Bahamut tempers Louisoix, except Louisoix's eyes glowed red instead of blue.

Finally, someone on this forum has come up with a theory that both fits the text and doesn't make me more depressed. Thank you.

Ultimately, you can look for flaws in the story and get depressed about them, or just try to enjoy the fiction that SE is actually trying to tell. Because the story SE was trying to tell was that the Ascians were all tempered like the purple sylths, like most of the Amalj'aa in Southern Thanalan, like those Kobolds that worship Titan until we untemper them and the scions quite literally admit to killing them when Thancred admits all of Ifrit's tempered were put to death and that this is a routine practice.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Ultimately, you can look for flaws in the story and get depressed about them, or just try to enjoy the fiction that SE is actually trying to tell. Because the story SE was trying to tell was that the Ascians were all tempered like the purple sylths, like most of the Amalj'aa in Southern Thanalan, like those Kobolds that worship Titan until we untemper them and the scions quite literally admit to killing them when Thancred admits all of Ifrit's tempered were put to death and that this is a routine practice.

The story they are trying to tell is exactly what bothers me. That the most horrific, unspeakable acts of savagery were committed for me and instead of horrified, I'm supposed to be touched by that because I'm so special. The horror comes from understanding the point they were making. If I could convince myself she was trying to save babies or stop the world from being eaten or whatever it is that people tell themselves to view Venat as not the most terrifying villain ever written, then I could go back to enjoying my cat girl glamour life. And while I have seen no reading of the text that could convince me that Venat did not condemn an entire species to death because she saw them as inferior, I can sleep more comfortably knowing there is a reading that my WoL was not fully in control of her actions when she aided Venat in ending the Ancients. She was tempered, so so tempered. All she saw was pretty blue eyes and Answers playing in the background and the whole 'wiping out an entire race' went fuzzy in her brain. She wanted to warn the Ancients, but her maker wouldn't allow it, kinda like when Athena forced her Elidibus remake to fight us. My poor, poor cat girl, just another victim of Venat's machinations. I feel 40% better.

[Merrigan]

The story they are trying to tell is exactly what bothers me. That the most horrific, unspeakable acts of savagery were committed for me and instead of horrified, I'm supposed to be touched by that because I'm so special. The horror comes from understanding the point they were making. If I could convince myself she was trying to save babies or stop the world from being eaten or whatever it is that people tell themselves to view Venat as not the most terrifying villain ever written, then I could go back to enjoying my cat girl glamour life. And while I have seen no reading of the text that could convince me that Venat did not condemn an entire species to death because she saw them as inferior, I can sleep more comfortably knowing there is a reading that my WoL was not fully in control of her actions when she aided Venat in ending the Ancients. She was tempered, so so tempered. All she saw was pretty blue eyes and Answers playing in the background and the whole 'wiping out an entire race' went fuzzy in her brain. She wanted to warn the Ancients, but her maker wouldn't allow it, kinda like when Athena forced her Elidibus remake to fight us. My poor, poor cat girl, just another victim of Venat's machinations. I feel 40% better.

I'm having trouble understanding your point of view on Endwalker's story: to me, it's clearly implied that history as it has unfolded cannot be changed. By the time we reach Elpis, Meteion has already been sent... And the damage done. At this point, little is known about the dynamis; we have no super-ship to give them, no precise location to point them to. So what can we tell them? "You are doomed"? Knowing that this could accelerate the process, based on what we know about dynamis at this point of the story? No, maybe it's done awkwardly, but at this point it's clearly stated that our only latitude is to open a "window" to preserve YOUR humanity.

And that's the second point I'm having trouble following. You talk a lot about the genocide of the Ascians, but they're not compatible with your own survival. Telling them (on the assumption that it might make a difference) is tantamount to jeopardizing the survival of the reflections, and therefore condemning everyone the WOL knows. It's literally "them" against "us", because without their extinction we can't exist. Another genocide, then, but almost "more psychopathic" because it concerns people who are close to us. You seem to want us to be on the right side of morality, but it seems difficult to me 1. To choose a good side in these conditions 2. To assert that the "moral choice" is to kill all the inhabitants of the reflections that are our contemporaries. There's no wonderful world where you can save both.