/r/ffxivdiscussion: Has FFXIV had any major retcons or plot holes in the story?

[ZavosEsperian]

I for one, gladly worship our genocidal mommy. Venat did nothing wrong.

Finally, someone who can go after the Ascians without being a hypocrite while doing so.

(i'd do the other gif, but the "trancers" or whatever they call themselves don't like it)

...uhh, who or what are you exactly talking about?

[Turtledeluxe]

Morality in storytelling is an interesting subject. Stories have a strong function across the timespan of like, human civilization and socialization. I don't think putting stories into video games or any entertainment suddenly changes that function. Stories are still how people communicate their own thoughts, feelings, etc. with others and even pass on those they've observed. Audiences interpret those stories and their perspective or motivations can change. In that sense, stories don't exist to teach you necessarily, but they can challenge your morality, which perhaps leads to it changing within you.

The odds Yoshi P can teach you a moral you don't already know are very low, but that's not on storytelling or video games.

[LilimoLimomo]

There have been plenty of plot holes and a non-trivial amount of retcons. Of course, what any given person considers a plothole or a retcon will vary, and some are more glaring than others.

There's also the additional layer of difficulty that comes with this game being translated from a different language and culture, and thus the translation itself can cause unforeseen issues.

[SieyaM]

The only one that I remember which I believe they even took out of the game was during the scene with Garuda. She states that she cannot temper you because you already belong to another, seeming to hint that Hydaelyn has tempered us and that is how we are granted the power of the echo. I feel this was thrown aside when they decided to go for the Hydaelyn/Venat is the ultimate most good there ever was without flaw or blemish.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

The only one that I remember which I believe they even took out of the game was during the scene with Garuda. She states that she cannot temper you because you already belong to another, seeming to hint that Hydaelyn has tempered us and that is how we are granted the power of the echo. I feel this was thrown aside when they decided to go for the Hydaelyn/Venat is the ultimate most good there ever was without flaw or blemish.

Given how we told her everything about the future when she asked us to, but didn't tell others when it would stop the genocide we'd just caused, I'd say the WoL is tempered by her. After all, people are claiming the Ascians are mindless slaves due to Zodiark and Hydaelyn is built off his blueprint. If the Ascians are servants to the dark, then we are servants to the light in the same way. Heck, Minfilia even says something along those lines when serving as the Voice of the Mother, doesn't she? A lot of the WoL's horrific actions make sense if they are simply tempered. That actually makes me feel a bit better. My WoL didn't stand there doing nothing knowing an entire people were about to get turned to scrap to make her world because she's a selfish monster, she was simply tempered and therefore couldn't act against Venat's evil plans.

Finally, someone on this forum has come up with a theory that both fits the text and doesn't make me more depressed. Thank you.

[TheMightyMollusk]

The only one that I remember which I believe they even took out of the game was during the scene with Garuda. She states that she cannot temper you because you already belong to another, seeming to hint that Hydaelyn has tempered us and that is how we are granted the power of the echo. I feel this was thrown aside when they decided to go for the Hydaelyn/Venat is the ultimate most good there ever was without flaw or blemish.

Ifrit made a similar comment, and Leviathan refers to us as "tainted of the Light". Seems like Hydaelyn was always planned to be a primal, they just hadn't figured out the entire story yet.

[SieyaM]

Ifrit made a similar comment, and Leviathan refers to us as "tainted of the Light". Seems like Hydaelyn was always planned to be a primal, they just hadn't figured out the entire story yet.

A primal yes, but they seem to have forgotten the tempering bit, or at least I didn't see any of it in the story telling for EW. Our actions as I saw it are framed as being our own, and that Hydaelyn was a benevolent goddess bestowing gifts upon us since we are her favored hero. At no point does anyone not under her influence, which anyone without the echo would have not been under her influence, question whether or not we are tempered.

[SieyaM]

Given how we told her everything about the future when she asked us to, but didn't tell others when it would stop the genocide we'd just caused, I'd say the WoL is tempered by her. After all, people are claiming the Ascians are mindless slaves due to Zodiark and Hydaelyn is built off his blueprint. If the Ascians are servants to the dark, then we are servants to the light in the same way. Heck, Minfilia even says something along those lines when serving as the Voice of the Mother, doesn't she? A lot of the WoL's horrific actions make sense if they are simply tempered. That actually makes me feel a bit better. My WoL didn't stand there doing nothing knowing an entire people were about to get turned to scrap to make her world because she's a selfish monster, she was simply tempered and therefore couldn't act against Venat's evil plans.

Finally, someone on this forum has come up with a theory that both fits the text and doesn't make me more depressed. Thank you.

It kind of makes sense but I didn't feel that EW addressed this at all. It seems to play out that we are in fact in complete control and that Hydaelyn just blessed us with gifts since we are a favored hero. Even people without the echo who know of Elpis and the Sundering don't question anything about it, they all treat it as though it was some great sacrifice that Venat had made to give us life rather than acknowledging that is led to the cessation of an entire society and culture.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

It kind of makes sense but I didn't feel that EW addressed this at all. It seems to play out that we are in fact in complete control and that Hydaelyn just blessed us with gifts since we are a favored hero. Even people without the echo who know of Elpis and the Sundering don't question anything about it, they all treat it as though it was some great sacrifice that Venat had made to give us life rather than acknowledging that is led to the cessation of an entire society and culture.

Given I felt as though I'd lost control of my character every time she looked at her feet with guilt and shame instead of telling these people they are about to be murdered, her being tempered works for me. Cause that certainly what her actions feel like. I mean she knows she's doing something wrong because she's reacting with guilt and shame, yet she keeps moving forward.

A primal yes, but they seem to have forgotten the tempering bit, or at least I didn't see any of it in the story telling for EW. Our actions as I saw it are framed as being our own, and that Hydaelyn was a benevolent goddess bestowing gifts upon us since we are her favored hero. At no point does anyone not under her influence, which anyone without the echo would have not been under her influence, question whether or not we are tempered.

Why would they? Her agenda is our creation and preservation of her rise to godhood. Why would anyone complain that we're tempered to act in ways that lead to our own creation? Think about how the non-tempered worshipers of Leviathan react to those tempered by Leviathan. They view them as teammates. We're working in service of their gods, why would they complain or want to cure us?

[Jeeqbit]

The only one that I remember which I believe they even took out of the game was during the scene with Garuda. She states that she cannot temper you because you already belong to another, seeming to hint that Hydaelyn has tempered us and that is how we are granted the power of the echo.

What actually happened was Garuda tried to temper you, failed and was confused why it didn't work. She never said you belonged to another. Instead, her attempt to temper you was reflected by Hydaelyn's shield, causing her to destroy herself, granting you the last crystal (the wind crystal) needed to complete the ward spell.

It is actually interesting that the Blessing of Light successfully repelled a wind attack prior to having a wind crystal, but maybe it can be argued that having a crystal that wind is weak against (ice) helped.

It is still mentioned directly in ARR that The Echo is what protects you from tempering anyway, although it could be argued that anyone with The Echo can have the blessing as well and therefore the scions may have been confused over the difference themselves.

Given how we told her everything about the future when she asked us to, but didn't tell others when it would stop the genocide we'd just caused, I'd say the WoL is tempered by her.

I used to think that because of how Midgardsormr removed the "tempering" from us. It turns out now that what he removed was her warding barrier spell that protected us from virtually anything, to see how we managed without it.

After all, people are claiming the Ascians are mindless slaves due to Zodiark

Well even in the cutscene, these Ascians are praying to Zodiark, saying "mighty Zodiark, hear are prayer". The Ascians would never do any such thing. They see themselves as mightier than anyone and anything. Even in Elpis, they saw their creations as something to be discarded without empathy. Yet suddenly, they bow before one of their creations and see this creation as superior to them? That is completely unlike the Ascians.

If the Ascians are servants to the dark, then we are servants to the light in the same way.

Of course, the definition of a primal is they are summoned with a desire to recruit others to one's cause. Hydaelyn is referred to as a primal at a certain point in the game, which does beg the question of if Hydaelyn is recruiting others to her cause via tempering. The evidence for this is Hydaelyn's call, which not everyone is able to hear, but when they do, they are recruited to her cause.

However, it is also interesting that she applies the warding spell to those who hear her call, because that would in theory protect them from tempering including from herself. But by then, it could be too late as well.

We could argue that if we were aetherially corrupted by the Light, then this may have been resolved in Shadowbringers when we put our Light up against Emet-Selch's Darkness, assuming we were able to release all the excess Light she'd been corrupting us with as well.

An argument against her being a primal, though, is the fact she met the scions in person and did not seem to temper them, when normally they'd not dare face a primal due to the tempering risk.

Heck, Minfilia even says something along those lines when serving as the Voice of the Mother, doesn't she?

In that situation, though, I think Minfilia is definitely tempered. It's exactly like when Bahamut tempers Louisoix, except Louisoix's eyes glowed red instead of blue.

Finally, someone on this forum has come up with a theory that both fits the text and doesn't make me more depressed. Thank you.

Ultimately, you can look for flaws in the story and get depressed about them, or just try to enjoy the fiction that SE is actually trying to tell. Because the story SE was trying to tell was that the Ascians were all tempered like the purple sylths, like most of the Amalj'aa in Southern Thanalan, like those Kobolds that worship Titan until we untemper them and the scions quite literally admit to killing them when Thancred admits all of Ifrit's tempered were put to death and that this is a routine practice.