/r/ffxivdiscussion: Has FFXIV had any major retcons or plot holes in the story?

[NekoMataMata]

A primal yes, but they seem to have forgotten the tempering bit, or at least I didn't see any of it in the story telling for EW. Our actions as I saw it are framed as being our own, and that Hydaelyn was a benevolent goddess bestowing gifts upon us since we are her favored hero. At no point does anyone not under her influence, which anyone without the echo would have not been under her influence, question whether or not we are tempered.

They slightly mention tempering in EW, but mostly in regards to Zodiark.

Zodiark unintentionally tempers. It was not designed to be this way, but rather it is through the nature of the massive amount of aether Zodiark was summoned through with the sacrifices of many ancients.

Tempering wasn't really on anyone's minds when Zodiark was summoned, and I doubt it was on anyone's minds when Venat was turned into Hydaelyn. Hydaelyn being a much weaker primal than Zodiark by the nature of the amount of sacrifices offered likely does not even temper unintentionally.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Ultimately, you can look for flaws in the story and get depressed about them, or just try to enjoy the fiction that SE is actually trying to tell. Because the story SE was trying to tell was that the Ascians were all tempered like the purple sylths, like most of the Amalj'aa in Southern Thanalan, like those Kobolds that worship Titan until we untemper them and the scions quite literally admit to killing them when Thancred admits all of Ifrit's tempered were put to death and that this is a routine practice.

The story they are trying to tell is exactly what bothers me. That the most horrific, unspeakable acts of savagery were committed for me and instead of horrified, I'm supposed to be touched by that because I'm so special. The horror comes from understanding the point they were making. If I could convince myself she was trying to save babies or stop the world from being eaten or whatever it is that people tell themselves to view Venat as not the most terrifying villain ever written, then I could go back to enjoying my cat girl glamour life. And while I have seen no reading of the text that could convince me that Venat did not condemn an entire species to death because she saw them as inferior, I can sleep more comfortably knowing there is a reading that my WoL was not fully in control of her actions when she aided Venat in ending the Ancients. She was tempered, so so tempered. All she saw was pretty blue eyes and Answers playing in the background and the whole 'wiping out an entire race' went fuzzy in her brain. She wanted to warn the Ancients, but her maker wouldn't allow it, kinda like when Athena forced her Elidibus remake to fight us. My poor, poor cat girl, just another victim of Venat's machinations. I feel 40% better.

[Dorito_Burrito]

[NanaWiloh]

Ya...same.

[Merrigan]

The story they are trying to tell is exactly what bothers me. That the most horrific, unspeakable acts of savagery were committed for me and instead of horrified, I'm supposed to be touched by that because I'm so special. The horror comes from understanding the point they were making. If I could convince myself she was trying to save babies or stop the world from being eaten or whatever it is that people tell themselves to view Venat as not the most terrifying villain ever written, then I could go back to enjoying my cat girl glamour life. And while I have seen no reading of the text that could convince me that Venat did not condemn an entire species to death because she saw them as inferior, I can sleep more comfortably knowing there is a reading that my WoL was not fully in control of her actions when she aided Venat in ending the Ancients. She was tempered, so so tempered. All she saw was pretty blue eyes and Answers playing in the background and the whole 'wiping out an entire race' went fuzzy in her brain. She wanted to warn the Ancients, but her maker wouldn't allow it, kinda like when Athena forced her Elidibus remake to fight us. My poor, poor cat girl, just another victim of Venat's machinations. I feel 40% better.

I'm having trouble understanding your point of view on Endwalker's story: to me, it's clearly implied that history as it has unfolded cannot be changed. By the time we reach Elpis, Meteion has already been sent... And the damage done. At this point, little is known about the dynamis; we have no super-ship to give them, no precise location to point them to. So what can we tell them? "You are doomed"? Knowing that this could accelerate the process, based on what we know about dynamis at this point of the story? No, maybe it's done awkwardly, but at this point it's clearly stated that our only latitude is to open a "window" to preserve YOUR humanity.

And that's the second point I'm having trouble following. You talk a lot about the genocide of the Ascians, but they're not compatible with your own survival. Telling them (on the assumption that it might make a difference) is tantamount to jeopardizing the survival of the reflections, and therefore condemning everyone the WOL knows. It's literally "them" against "us", because without their extinction we can't exist. Another genocide, then, but almost "more psychopathic" because it concerns people who are close to us. You seem to want us to be on the right side of morality, but it seems difficult to me 1. To choose a good side in these conditions 2. To assert that the "moral choice" is to kill all the inhabitants of the reflections that are our contemporaries. There's no wonderful world where you can save both.

[Merrigan]

Where I agree with you a little more is the fact that certain themes weren't exploited enough, which does indeed give that impression... of In-between. It's quite rare that our character is really confronted about his actions. If we forget the Ascians thing for a second, we can either interpret our character as a hero, or as a potential monster (is that what they wanted to do with Zenos?). Present a WOL who's gone completely off the rails by killing so much? Anyway). You kill hundreds of people all the time, with your own hands, and if Endwalker touches on this theme with the Garlemald zone, it's too quickly done. The game hesitates a lot in this expansion between venerating your character and condemning him... And it does indeed give you that strange feeling, where after you've witnessed atrocities (the general's suicide), you're tapped on the shoulder and told "well done, oh great hero! (You bring death to your enemies, and I'm glad I'm not against you, so I don't have to eat dandelions by the roots!)". Another passage bothered me for the same reasons: the moment when the young woman tries to save her sister during our visit to Garlemald. I thought it was a great idea! It really shows the impact of the war and puts things into perspective. But at the same time... The aftermath was handled too quickly. Hop, a little sad face, show that we'd have liked to save them, and... that's all. No talk about the fact that we messed it up. No talk about the fact that sending the WOL (a deathbringer for Garlemald) to meet the local population might be a terrible idea,