/r/ffxivdiscussion: Has FFXIV had any major retcons or plot holes in the story?

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Yoshi P confirmed that the magical EW loop was closed. When you try to stretch it out and apply it to the 10 year history of the game, it doesn't work, because it's not meant to be interpreted that way. It creates all sorts of inconsistencies, problems, and meaningless actions within the narrative. The reason there are no side stories or sources that directly cover what Venat did or didn't do as far as Meteion is because they're written in the context of a non visit history, or at the very least one where she does not have any agency. And she's not the only person that doesn't. Rather than a 2 hour video, I prefer this thread that takes a deeper look at how time works in XIV:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...time_works_in/

Also, the Sundering is not built on the idea it made humanity strong, at least not completely. That's information conveniently revealed in..oh yeah, as I keep repeating...Endwalker. The writers wanted to have their cake and eat it too-- have a magical Elpis visit that gave us hope the future could be different but ultimately not change it because "fate" (because MSQ). As such, present day Hydaelyn and Lifestream Emet have to awkwardly assess and rationalize all of these new EW lore pieces as though they had agency when they didn't. Hydaelyn even makes reference to this in her trial-- "I had no choice but to render Zodiark asunder". It's not clear if Venat understands why she had no choice- that's the point.

I just wanted to say I haven't been responding because half of what you're saying I don't disagree with and the other half, I don't follow. Like I agree it's a closed time loop. I agree it creates a bunch of issues. But I disagree no one has agency. I'd argue that Venat and the WoL are the only people with agency because they are the only ones aware of the loop. Given they know about the loop, either of them should be able to break it by choosing to behave differently than they did in the past. Everyone else is on autopilot because they are doing what they'd do with no knowledge of the future, but both Venat and WoL know what will happen.

Also, I take her "I had no choice" to mean that given he was gonna put salve on own their booboos meaning they'd be too soft and gushy to pass the test, she had no choice but to sunder him, so we could go through our torture training and learn to endure despair. I don't think she meant she literally had no choice.

[Turtledeluxe]

I just wanted to say I haven't been responding because half of what you're saying I don't disagree with and the other half, I don't follow. Like I agree it's a closed time loop. I agree it creates a bunch of issues. But I disagree no one has agency. I'd argue that Venat and the WoL are the only people with agency because they are the only ones aware of the loop. Given they know about the loop, either of them should be able to break it by choosing to behave differently than they did in the past. Everyone else is on autopilot because they are doing what they'd do with no knowledge of the future, but both Venat and WoL know what will happen.

Also, I take her "I had no choice" to mean that given he was gonna put salve on own their booboos meaning they'd be too soft and gushy to pass the test, she had no choice but to sunder him, so we could go through our torture training and learn to endure despair. I don't think she meant she literally had no choice.

I am unsure how to respond because I don't understand the rules you're operating with regarding time and causality. For example, how do you know the characters are able to behave differently? If they behave differently, what does that mean for the future(present day MSQ)? Don't you agree that, if Venat did behave differently and did save the star in her own timeline, that it would create some kind of alternate timeline/divergence separate from the MSQ? Maybe I am missing something but I don't see how you're accounting for these questions.

Also regarding the WoL, I don't see how they necessarily have agency but I do agree that they doomed the timeline inadvertently since they are (theoretically) the person who introduced Hydaelyn to the past, like the very idea of it.

[Yuella]

The Emmerorolth plot hole could've been avoided if Galuf just said they killed her without indicating that she could not have been reborn

[Lady_Silvermoon]

I am unsure how to respond because I don't understand the rules you're operating with regarding time and causality. For example, how do you know the characters are able to behave differently? If they behave differently, what does that mean for the future(present day MSQ)? Don't you agree that, if Venat did behave differently and did save the star in her own timeline, that it would create some kind of alternate timeline/divergence separate from the MSQ? Maybe I am missing something but I don't see how you're accounting for these questions.

Also regarding the WoL, I don't see how they necessarily have agency but I do agree that they doomed the timeline inadvertently since they are (theoretically) the person who introduced Hydaelyn to the past, like the very idea of it.

Guess I'm working off Groundhog Day rules where only the people aware of the loop can choose to behave differently. After all, if you aren't aware of the loop you have no reason to behave differently. To me, I feel like the only reason we are in a closed loop is because Venat and the WoL *want* for us to be in a closed loop and if either of them felt differently they could take action to break the loop. However, no one else can because they are unaware of the loop and would just do whatever they'd naturally do with no knowledge of the consequences. The only people in the loop who know the results of their choices are Venat and the WoL. It's pretty obvious Venat is doing everything possible to maintain the loop including setting the Ascians loose and letting the First fall to light. People seem to make peace with this by believing she's Doctor Strange and somehow checked every other possible outcome and this was the one and only way humanity survives. Not only do I not believe that, even if it was, I don't think it would justify her actions.

[Yuella]

She wanted Endsinger defeated. Sundering was the only way this could be done. Maybe if she had more time she could've thought of a different way but with the ancients crying and whining everyday and Zodiark is available, she couldn't take the risk.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

She wanted Endsinger defeated. Sundering was the only way this could be done. Maybe if she had more time she could've thought of a different way but with the ancients crying and whining everyday and Zodiark is available, she couldn't take the risk.

This is what I believe to be an honest reading of the text. She saw her people as weak little crybabies and she needed some tough sparks to fly to the edge of the universe and do some face punching. If we can't even agree on what happened and why, then debating the morality of it is pointless. We can't discuss if her eugenics program was good or bad if half of you think she did it to save babies from their brainwashed parents. The sundering would have killed the babies...and the parents...

[Heroman3003]

I genuinely don't think anything would have turned out radically different in WoL's absence, other than the fact that there is now a stable loop where Hydaelyn knows to watch out for their arrival and knows they will be the one to have to deal with Final Days. Otherwise, like, let's just assume that we weren't there. Hyth and Emet still run into Venat, they almost certainly still have her join because Venat's Venat and wouldn't miss the opportunity to mess with Mr. Selch. Along the way they still reunite with Hermes, Meteion eventually gets the message and disappears. Sure, without us it probably takes longer to find her, but she can't hide forever and eventually is either found, or overwhelmed by shared conciousness and comes out. After the report, Hermes still takes her away, and the other three still pursue. At the end of Ktisis, things play out pretty much exactly the same, except Hyth gets blasted harder. And once they're out, Venat is the one to have come up with the idea to not tell anyone to avoid alienating Hermes and plan a conspiracy in quiet, so she'll likely do that again. In the metaphorical cutscene, we literally see her beg her people to find a better path, and only resort to Sundering after it fails, so I believe it will happen again too. Like, our actions at best give Hydaelyn the idea to prepare the moon as the vessel (which could still happen without us) and slightly accelerate timeline of events on Elpis itself, but otherwise, it wouldn't be out of character for her, or anyone else, to still do things the way they were done.

[Turtledeluxe]

Guess I'm working off Groundhog Day rules where only the people aware of the loop can choose to behave differently. After all, if you aren't aware of the loop you have no reason to behave differently. To me, I feel like the only reason we are in a closed loop is because Venat and the WoL *want* for us to be in a closed loop and if either of them felt differently they could take action to break the loop. However, no one else can because they are unaware of the loop and would just do whatever they'd naturally do with no knowledge of the consequences. The only people in the loop who know the results of their choices are Venat and the WoL. It's pretty obvious Venat is doing everything possible to maintain the loop including setting the Ascians loose and letting the First fall to light. People seem to make peace with this by believing she's Doctor Strange and somehow checked every other possible outcome and this was the one and only way humanity survives. Not only do I not believe that, even if it was, I don't think it would justify her actions.

When Yoshi P said the loop is closed he didn't say why. He theorized reasons it could be, because he doesn't know. Hence my original post, that they do not think about consistency in any deep way. The loop is closed because the writers want it to be. The Elpis visit is very clearly a retcon, which means applying it to pre EW doesn't make sense. They made it make sense strictly for EW but created rules that blocked it from changing the future, which makes sense because otherwise you have to account for breaking the future and the MsQ completely chamges. So we end up with characters who now see clearly what they did but aren't aware of their own lack of agency.

I don't disagree that it would be nice if Venat told everyone, I just see no way she could have done so without breaking the game. It would be great if she didn't have these weird ideas that she had to sunder mankind and subject them to a trial. But the writers are the ones who made so that WoL introduced all these ideas to her. We agree the story is stupid, but imo what makes it stupid is that the WoL essentially introduced all of the problematic things about the story to characters who had no real ability to change the future and then left their time period. I just don't think Venat's choices have anything to do with being Doctor Strange or anything else-- it was all about her playing her role exactly as we were always told pre EW in order maintain the timeline. It's about the fact it's an MMORPG (ie plot convenience). They couldn't just tell us Elpis, it had to be experienced. So you end up with this strange mess for this part of the story.

[Palladiamors]

The Sundering very much qualifies as an act of genocide, just as the Rejoinings do as well.

You wanna explain that one? The sundering did just that, it split them in thirteen. The rejoining requires the literal death of an entire shard AND causes a cataclysm on the source. Not sure why you think the sundering killed anyone unless you're being metaphorical or running on headcanon

[Theodric]

You wanna explain that one? The sundering did just that, it split them in thirteen. The rejoining requires the literal death of an entire shard AND causes a cataclysm on the source. Not sure why you think the sundering killed anyone unless you're being metaphorical or running on headcanon

It has been explained many times already, including within the video I linked on the previous page which contains the sources in question. The sections of the video titled 'dehumanisation' and 'excuses' reveal much of the relevant information.

Though I will also link to a prior point towards the tail end of last year where this exact same 'debate' was had between some of the exact same posters, starting here:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6365173

...and lasting for many pages afterwards all in a desperate effort to try and obscure the consequences of Venat's actions.

It should be readily apparent why the whole scale elimination of an entire species - replaced with something completely different - qualifies as an act of genocide. Particularly when all knowledge and memory of that very same group is also hidden in the aftermath.

Though to make it easy, I will just post the definition outright:



The term is in itself used within the setting, so we know the concept exists - and given that the Rejoinings count as it, the Sundering very much does as well given that both alter the state of any caught up either event.