/r/ffxivdiscussion: Has FFXIV had any major retcons or plot holes in the story?

[LandonIXIII]

*snip*

*Sigh* Here we go with the genocide nonsense again, Can we let it rest for god's sake?

[Asari5]

only the ancients who summoned zodiark were tempered. thats why their sociaty was in disagreement for the first time. and they actually got tempered. there is optional dialogue in shb with emet-selch about that. its not as extrem as it is when the tribes summon a primal. they messed around with the summoning ritual to enhance that effect.

and from what we know about the english localized version, it might not be the best idea to get heated up about details without checking the facts in other languages

[DiaDeem]

I never took that to mean it was actually Zodiark's power. I took it to mean it was an example of what his god would be able to do when it was restored, but wasn't actually being cast by his god. It's like if I open MS paint and draw a picture of Zodiark destroying everything. It's not actually Zodiark's power, it is just a picture; a demonstration of what Zodiark's power level will be when he is restored.

I mean, yeah. As I said I'm purposedly overthinking it, but Lahee (that was his high school nickname) seemed rather direct about "A spell without parallel" and it being linked to "his god", so I know the Athena theory thing is not very likely... but not entirely implausible!

[Theodric]

*Sigh* Here we go with the genocide nonsense again, Can we let it rest for god's sake?

The Sundering very much qualifies as an act of genocide, just as the Rejoinings do as well.

[Turtledeluxe]

When he said this, he didn't know we'd be corporal. Secondly, this isn't even a tech invented by his species, why does he know the rules when those who invented it don't even know? Thirdly, we did change the past. We caused the Sundering. Had we kept out mouths closed the entire time, the Sundering never happens. It was only speaking that caused it. And after we cause it, we stop speaking to make sure it goes through. Sure it's the writers controlling our character to make sure they do exactly what is necessary to cause a genocide and nothing more. They wrote the WoL to knowingly be directly responsible for a genocide. Because once the wheels are set in motion, the fact we then don't take action to stop it proves the WoL is complicit.

Being corporal is irrelevant. The writers did not include it in his statement and as such, is merely headcannon on your part. Secondly, there is thereotically no timeline where the sundering happens without us. None. The game was maintaining a past where we never went to it and the Sundering occurred without us, but it was quite literally retconned. The whole Elpis trip is an instance they made up strictly to excuse us traversing Elpis, without considering that it creates a loop where the WoL engineers everything and robs all agency from everyone else. The past cannot help but lead to the present, otherwise we wouldn't have returned to the MSQ. A separate branch would need to occur-- and maybe it did. But no one mentions a branch where Venat succeeded in saving her time period ans there's no evidence such a branch exists.

If there is a past where the Sundering occurred and we didn't visit, I'd still argue it doesn't matter anyway because the revisionist Elpis loop literally gets conjoined to the present anyway ie "we are retconning".

[Jeeqbit]

Everything you've said is headcannon

Doubtful. I tried to avoid my headcannon and just say the story SE was obviously trying to tell.

that is not supported by anything told in the story that you've made up in order to justify the atrocity committed by Venat.

This idea of an atrocity is what is made up. Obviously, SE has not portrayed it that way in the slightest and it's because the story they are telling is that she was saving them from the self-destruction that happened to all the other stars, as I explained.

If the Ancients are all tempered why is there disagreement over the third sacrifice?

Because Emet-Selch literally admits that were all tempered in optional dialogue.

Player: Tell me about Zodiark.
Emet-Selch: As I told you before--Zodiark is the creation of my people. The first people.
Emet-Selch: We summoned Him, as your kind might summon a primal--albeit an infinitely more powerful one.
Emet-Selch: And like one of your primals, He tempered us. It was only natural. There is no resisting such power. And so we Ascians came to exist solely to bring about the rule of darkness. His darkness.

Hydaelyn refers to them all as "servants of Zodiark" in 3.2. After Emet-Selch dies, Y'shtola refers to him as a servant of Zodiark. Because he was tempered.

Why do the Loporits explain that tempering was added by the Ascians after the sundering?

What they explained was that they are only primals if you summon them with the desire to recruit others to ones' cause. Normally, the Ancients summoned without this desire, but given the above information, it is quite clear that they summoned Zodiark with the "desire to recruit others to ones' cause". Most likely because it was an emergency and they wanted everyone to be on board with their plan.

How Venat avoided being tempered was probably her travelers ward, something that she told us was uniquely hers. SE consistently said the rest of them were tempered dating back to the start of 2.0 to all the way through Shadowbringers.

Why did Venat not warn them that Zodiark would temper them?

They already seemed to be tempered in the cutscene we watched. As for telling Emet-Selch this, maybe it was intentional, based on the dialogue above. He wanted everyone on board, but he didn't have the hindsight of what that would do to all the beast tribes, and his own people.

If primals are made based off the desires of the creators, why would a being created from the desire to save the world instead destroy it?

Well of course, the purpose of Zodiark was to use the Aether to restore darkness to an area that was lacking it and to use the Ascians' aether to create trees, plants, vegetation, then restore them. But as we know, primals crave an endless supply of Aether because they were created with a desire to recruit others to their cause. Once they are recruited, it isn't long before they want to sacrifice themselves to their god, until all of them have done so and they have annihilated themselves. In other words, there was a flaw in its creation.

Venat needed the human race to suffer in order to pass Meteion's test. When she sunders the world she says, "No longer shall man have wings to bear him to paradise."

That's because in order to know how to overcome Meteion's despair, people need to experience it on a regular basis, otherwise they won't know how to. The Ascians didn't know how to because they had only known perfection. In order to make them experience despair on a regular basis, their "wings" were removed as she put it. They would experience hardship and despair constantly, so that when they were finally confronted with a Final Days event, they would know how to deal with it and remain positive, which allows us to progress through Ultima Thule and remain hopeful enough to defeat her.

Even on the Source, the amount of people that actually succumbed to the Final Days wasn't that great. How many people that we normally see in these city states were missing? How many people in our quests vanished? Barely anyone. Because they had known hardship their whole life and most of them didn't just immediately struggle to deal with it.

[Theodric]

I'll just link this video which backs up its talking points with sources, as this has been discussed many times already across numerous threads since Endwalker launched and I have little desire to quote things to certain posters that have been cited many times already:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsk412wCrJY

It is almost two hours long, admittedly, though that's a consequence of an in-depth character analysis being conducted. It is split into more easily digestible chapters elsewhere on the very same channel. The video was created by a team consisting of a number of lore enthusiasts - myself included - who wanted to compile such information in a single location.

It includes relevant statements from interviews with the development team as well as canon short stories that some may very well have not read due to being obscure.

If nothing else, we know that if Venat was aiming the Sundering at the protagonists and their loved ones then they would have no obligation to allow for it to happen to them. Therefore, nobody else is obligated to just roll over and accept such a horrific fate either.

[Elissar]

I don't have anything new to add
Except that i would like to have more time with Zodiark...he was not the big bad after all. When we defeated him, we got a glimpse of Fandaniel's mind...but nothing about the beast

Probably the primal still had some memory of the fight vs crystal mom...wasted opportunity to show us said event.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

*snip*

It's not that the atrocity didn't happen. It's that I'm not supposed to view erasing everyone's memory, breaking all familial connections, tearing apart their souls, and introducing them to a dramatically short lifetime of suffering as an atrocity. I do though. I am incapable of seeing the sundering as anything other than an atrocity built on the flimsy excuse it made humanity "strong."

Emet-Selch is committing suicide in Shadowbringers. The Elpis version of himself recognizes his actions as a suicide attempt. If by tempering he is a mindless slave, then nothing he did was his fault because he's a mindless slave. Who knowingly let him become a mindless slave? Venat. Who failed to warn him he'd become a mindless slave? Venat. Who had a traveler's ward that could have protected him from becoming a mindless slave? Venat. Who built her own god design off Zodiark's? Venat. So either she had the knowledge to make a primal without the tempering and the absorption of aether which she didn't give to the Convocation or like the Lopporit said those were negative effects added by the Ascians. The Lopporits said that with a being as powerful as Zodiark, you might feel a tug, which would explain why Emet-Selch would feel love and gratitude towards Zodiark, but he still spent an entire expansion acting against Zodiark's interests.

Zodiark protected the sundered for 12,000 years without doing any harm to the world, and all the souls of the dead were also safely protected all that time to be released back into the lifestream after he was destroyed. If he was the hungry, hungry baby eating hippo you guys like to make him out to be, why did he hurt not a single solitary person while Venat lied and manipulated, set up people to fight over something she knew wasn't dangerous, so she could make herself a god in order to torture people for 12k years. All the pain and death happens on her watch. All Zodiark did was prevent pain and death, and so she destroyed him because she didn't want that pain prevented. She wants people to endure suffering so they can know whatever she calls "true happiness." She never saved anyone. Only maimed and broke things while taking credit from the people and beings that actually did the saving.

*Sigh* Here we go with the genocide nonsense again, Can we let it rest for god's sake?

I wish I could, but this forum is like dating Shaggy, "You gone believe me or your eyes?"

[Turtledeluxe]

Yoshi P confirmed that the magical EW loop was closed. When you try to stretch it out and apply it to the 10 year history of the game, it doesn't work, because it's not meant to be interpreted that way. It creates all sorts of inconsistencies, problems, and meaningless actions within the narrative. The reason there are no side stories or sources that directly cover what Venat did or didn't do as far as Meteion is because they're written in the context of a non visit history, or at the very least one where she does not have any agency. And she's not the only person that doesn't. Rather than a 2 hour video, I prefer this thread that takes a deeper look at how time works in XIV:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...time_works_in/

Also, the Sundering is not built on the idea it made humanity strong, at least not completely. That's information conveniently revealed in..oh yeah, as I keep repeating...Endwalker. The writers wanted to have their cake and eat it too-- have a magical Elpis visit that gave us hope the future could be different but ultimately not change it because "fate" (because MSQ). As such, present day Hydaelyn and Lifestream Emet have to awkwardly assess and rationalize all of these new EW lore pieces as though they had agency when they didn't. Hydaelyn even makes reference to this in her trial-- "I had no choice but to render Zodiark asunder". It's not clear if Venat understands why she had no choice- that's the point.