/r/ffxivdiscussion: Has FFXIV had any major retcons or plot holes in the story?

[Jeeqbit]

Hydaelyn grants her blessing to anyone who listens to her call, which led to peope believing the echo is what does it.

Yes, but the blessing is built up over time as we gather those crystals. So all the other people with The Echo might not necessarily have built up the blessing. There isn't necessarily a confirmation that they did.

Remember when Y'shtola using her aethervision was killing her?

Like in real life, we can say things are bad for our health, but usually the consequences won't be felt until we're much older. Unless we travel into the future, we probably won't meet old Y'shtola.

It was not always clear what was going on, if you were just seeing that past or actually going to it. Like that time we gave Cid his goggles.

I saw that as just his imagination/memory. We enter Cid's memories later on in the Bozja story and there are things that happen there where at first it's wrong and then has to be corrected, to demonstrate how memories get mixed up.

I saw handing the goggles back as a symbolic thing of "here's your memories back" and that this fact was making its way into his memories when he probably got them some other way.

Still, it's not impossible time travel was involved. We don't necessarily know a lot about it. We just know that Alexander can do it and therefore primals can do it but maybe we will learn the inner workings of it in future expansions.

Everything related to Ascians, Zodiark, Hydaelyn and general backstory of the world only started gain remotest sense of concrete shape as they were writing Shadowbringers. Until then, they had no idea where they'll be going with that plot arc. So you can safely assume most things that 'dont line up' between what we see from Ascians' meetings and actions prior to 4.x are safely retconned, rather than some dangling plot threads.

Not true. They had a pretty rough idea of what they were doing the whole time. The entire plot through Heavensward into Endwalker is foreshadowed in a Heavensward cutscene https://youtu.be/hJZ94R0TEzE?t=147

The cutscene says that Zodiark coveted power, so Hydaelyn bound him to the Moon. She admits she sundered the star into 13 reflections, each possessed of a shard, which I assume means the elemental shards we see her use so often. She tells us that the Ascians' goal is to restore Zodiark and make him whole (which is true) and that they are His servants (also true because Emet admits there was no fighting the tempering of such a powerful primal). She tells us they mean to tear down the barriers which surround the Source by creating calamities that result in a Rejoining that will help rejoin, among other things, Zodiark's fragments. She tells us they succeeded 7 times (also true).

If you go back to ARR you can even see that a lot of what Lahabrea says at the Praetorium is true, vague as it is. They obviously didn't know what they were doing then entirely, but they had a vague idea that their goal was to restore their god, Zodiark, by way of calamities. Which remained true to the end.

They also forgot that Black Mask Ascians exist after HW, not quite a retcon but generally a plot point that youd think would get more attention in light of revelations from ShB, but nope.

I think it can be argued that we defeated them in the Summoner quests, taken care of by Shadow Hunter or while chasing Elidibus.

Gaius surviving was definitely a retcon and not something planned though.

Yes, that was clearly a retcon because the fire was obviously meant to kill him. In fact, if you run the video of his final moments in slow motion, the flame intensity increases significantly making it impossible to leave the flame circle and then there are unavoidable explosions everywhere with him still there. The only way to argue he lived would be to say that what the cutscene showed us wasn't accurate and that he in fact ran out of the flame area right before the intensity increased.

Arguments have been made that him not being in POTD showed they were not sure about saying he's dead even as early as Heavensward. I'm glad that they didn't kill him because I found myself mostly agreeing with what he was saying and wondering why we were even enemies, when he was mostly being manipulated by Ascians and misguided by having grown up in the Garlean Empire.

They had a weird made up gibberish language that never came back.

It sorta comes back at The Tempest. The gibberish language still rings clear in our minds like it does with the dragons. When we go through Endwalker, they just use English, probably so that it doesn't annoy us, but it's the same everywhere, you know? We're going to Tural and they probably wouldn't speak our language. In fact they admitted they don't in the latest patch. Yet, we're going to go there and we'll all speak English, because the story wouldn't be fun if we needed a translator.

During the first cast, Lahabrea claims that "this is but a test of my god's power"

I never took that to mean it was actually Zodiark's power. I took it to mean it was an example of what his god would be able to do when it was restored, but wasn't actually being cast by his god. It's like if I open MS paint and draw a picture of Zodiark destroying everything. It's not actually Zodiark's power, it is just a picture; a demonstration of what Zodiark's power level will be when he is restored.

[BokoToloko]

Taking what I've read into the story regarding the echo and the Blessing of Light, they're are distinct powers.

The Echo is technically an innate ability that lays dormant in everyone and can be awakened by stirring their unsundered counterparts memories (the starshower). And the Blessing of Light is Hydaelyn's protection magick which, so far, she applies on those who awaken the Echo (didn't Elidibus say something to this effect?)

Also, the Ultima spell was ultimately not related in any way to Zodiark, as Lahabrea stated, as it was related to the Heart of Sabik and the High Seraph (who, up to this day, is still a loose end)

[TheMightyMollusk]

Taking what I've read into the story regarding the echo and the Blessing of Light, they're are distinct powers.

The Echo is technically an innate ability that lays dormant in everyone and can be awakened by stirring their unsundered counterparts memories (the starshower). And the Blessing of Light is Hydaelyn's protection magick which, so far, she applies on those who awaken the Echo (didn't Elidibus say something to this effect?)

The problem is that the story has never been clear on where one begins and one ends. Back in post-ARR, Midgardsormr seals the Blessing of Light, but we still have Echo visions and face Ravana and Bismark without fear of tempering despite it still being partially sealed. He claimed it was because we were tipping the balance between Light and Dark too far, but by the time we face Thordan, we've gotten even stronger, broken Midgardsormr's seal, and it's just not a problem anymore somehow.

There's also Nabriales claiming that the WoL's Blessing kept him from entering the Rising Stones, and then immediately doing so to try to steal Tupsimati when he realizes the Blessing is sealed. That's never explained. Further muddying that is that Minfilia is also stated to have the Blessing, and hers was never sealed. Was hers just not strong enough to keep him out because she's a non-combatant? But then why didn't Nabriales just go for it when the WoL was out in the field somewhere and couldn't have made it back in time anyway?

[BokoToloko]

The problem is that the story has never been clear on where one begins and one ends. Back in post-ARR, Midgardsormr seals the Blessing of Light, but we still have Echo visions and face Ravana and Bismark without fear of tempering despite it still being partially sealed. He claimed it was because we were tipping the balance between Light and Dark too far, but by the time we face Thordan, we've gotten even stronger, broken Midgardsormr's seal, and it's just not a problem anymore somehow.

There's also Nabriales claiming that the WoL's Blessing kept him from entering the Rising Stones, and then immediately doing so to try to steal Tupsimati when he realizes the Blessing is sealed. That's never explained. Further muddying that is that Minfilia is also stated to have the Blessing, and hers was never sealed. Was hers just not strong enough to keep him out because she's a non-combatant? But then why didn't Nabriales just go for it when the WoL was out in the field somewhere and couldn't have made it back in time anyway?

I don't see how any of those things actually interferes with what I've said. Actually, some even support it. If Midgardsomr sealing the blessing of light doesn't stop us from having visions, it just supports the idea both are separate powers. The only muddy part is Midgarsomr plans in the grand scheme of things and the whole Light/Dark balance, which doesn't seem to implicate our power, rather implying our impact in the world's affairs.

On Ravana and Bismark, neither of them actually try to temper us (granted, it can look like a very convenient plot point) and it's shown that primals can choose whether to temper their victims or not, unlike Anima towers.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

I'm not sure if I'd say recons but the story in general is made up as they go which can sometimes cause inconsistencies, contradictions, or otherwise problematic situations that just don't need to exist in the storytelling. The most infamous one I can think of is the cliche take that Venat is genocidal because the writers decided at the end of the arc to add in a time loop where she theoretically could have prevented the future. The take is incorrect because the writers clarify via Elidibus the type of time travel they're using for this single instance is one where the past and present become conjoined, making everything up to our journey to Elpis locked into the timeline i.e. no one including Venat can change it, no matter how hard they did or didn't try. They can only affect/change what happens post journey. You can pull all sorts of other instances in the game that make this ambiguous (thus, inconsistency) which is ultimately weakening the storytelling when it just didn't need to be that way.

And Yoshi P's own statements about it make it very clear, imo, they do not think about consistency on any particularly deep level and reserve it for obvious and simplistic elements.

They are using the same method of timetravel, the Crystal Tower, that G'raha used to change the past. Also, having her try to change things and having them end up the same way isn't what happened. The timeline is preserved because she takes every step to preserve it. Also, us traveling back does change the past, by telling her about the Sundering, we cause the Sundering. So we open our mouths to get people killed, but we keep our mouths shut when we could prevent their deaths. If the time loop cannot be changed then the WoL should be able to shout from the rooftops during Pandemonium and it wouldn't matter, but we don't tell these people what is coming for them, because we need them to die so we can have their parts.

And even if it was a closed loop that couldn't be stopped no matter what we did (even though we didn't try a thing). That would not change eradicating your entire species for being weak and replacing them with what you deem a stronger species being an act of genocide. It'd just be an unpreventable act of genocide, which this wasn't, this was an act of genocide we went for at every opportunity.

[Jessica_VS]

Not exactly a plot hole, but there are plenty of illogical inconsistencies in the way things "work". I am an author, and my editors/publishers seek and destroy inconsistencies with brutal efficiency. One of the most common inconsistencies in fantasy writing is when a character gets wounded by something that, in any other scenario, would be easy to heal. That sort of thing drives me nuts as I know it would drive my editors nuts, too. This comes up on several occasions in FFXIV, with the most ridiculous example being when Aymeric is stabbed by knife-guy in the Post-Heavensward quests. Where is the white mage (or better yet, since everyone is right there in Ishgard, the astrologian) who can heal him? Why take him to the chirurgeons at all and have him rest in a bed? When he walks out, still pained over his injury, he is standing right there in front of my character! I can heal him! But I offer a concerned expression instead.

A related example would be the countless times a villain shows up and the characters (including people with guns and ranged magical attacks) have a whole dialogue with him instead of just, you know, shooting him immediately.

Or the countless---and I mean COUNTLESS---examples of deus ex machina. Tense moment? Don't worry! Some random character will swoop in (at least 90% of the time) right before the villain kills someone to save the day, rescue the person, whatever. Uggghghhghghh... To pick on Heavensward some more (supposedly the "best story"), when the mad archpriest pushes the girl off the ledge, that's when it just so happens that Vidofnir is there to catch her. SIGH.

Of course, this is Final Fantasy. The series always has been over the top and full of illogical elements which would never blend together "realistically". Personally I find it hard to become invested in super-high-fantasy genre stories for this reason, and FFXIV is no exception there. I am nowhere near as interested or invested in the story as some people claim to be, but it's a fun game to me for other reasons.

[Mortex]

What is a bit annoying for me is that they really never explained what the sundering really did. Is it just a dimensional space around the planet or is it the entire universe.

Also dynamis becoming the get out of jail free card. You can just use it too explain almost anything in this game and it does become tedious.

[Asako]

My only Issue comes at the end of base Endwalker after the last battle. You activate the Maguffin, release it. Have a few cutscenes, fly through space, have another battle and cutscene and then it just lands beside you at the right time. I know it's a game and some things can get a bit over the top but this was dumb. It should be miles behind you.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

What is a bit annoying for me is that they really never explained what the sundering really did. Is it just a dimensional space around the planet or is it the entire universe.

Also dynamis becoming the get out of jail free card. You can just use it too explain almost anything in this game and it does become tedious.

Only the star is Sundered. Think about how much power it would take to split the entire universe into 14 pieces. Plus, that would mean entire universes crashed into each other when the aether of one star was too out of balance. The destruction on that scale would be mindblowing. Imagine if you're a worm person on some distant planet and not only did you get ripped to shreds, now when some people a billion miles away casts too much fire magic, another copy of your world comes flooding back into yours nearly wiping out your entire population. The worm people would murder us down to the last man and I wouldn't even be able to blame them. Also, Midgardsormr could see the Source and it's reflections as he approached the planet. If the whole universe had been Sundered, he'd be sundered too and unable to see the other shards.

[TheMightyMollusk]

My only Issue comes at the end of base Endwalker after the last battle. You activate the Maguffin, release it. Have a few cutscenes, fly through space, have another battle and cutscene and then it just lands beside you at the right time. I know it's a game and some things can get a bit over the top but this was dumb. It should be miles behind you.

Urianger speculates that, since the place we fight Zenos for the last time is basically made of pure dynamis, it reacted to him to bring the teleporter back to send the WoL home as his thanks for finally getting his rematch. It's as plausible an explanation as any other.