Politics

[Lady_Silvermoon]

They do this constantly, yes. This is just a particularly efficient form, because we've all played the part of the game they're misremembering/misunderstanding/ignoring like, two days ago.

Will you please stop discussing me as a person. It's weird. If you take issue with the things I say, discuss the things I say.

[Cleretic]

If you take issue with the things I say, discuss the things I say.

Then respond to MikkoAkure, or to Palladiamors, who actually did discuss the things you said. If what you actually want to do is defend your points, then you have people challenging them. But personally, I look at your posts and I see someone who failed to read clearly stated points in a story they played, at the absolute latest, the day before they posted. There isn't even a distance from the story to blame here; you read all of this as recently as we did.

As pointed out by Mikko, we're fully aware that one of the people with eyes on the throne wants to use it to invade Eorzea, meaning turning a blind eye to it all would be at best foolish--but as Palladiamors said, so too are we not getting blindly involved, as our explicitly stated first priority is actually to get the lay of the land. And also mentioned by Palladiamors, far from being an unwelcome presence to the proceedings, we're actually being directly invited, because the rite of succession encourages recruiting people to put importance on the diplomacy and unification that Gulool presumably values himself.

I think those are all pretty well-stated points, and I didn't really add to them because I thought that they made their points very well, I didn't have anything further to say on it. But I don't think you're interested in arguing the actual points; I think you're interested in kneejerk moralizing. Which is why you reply to what you see as a personal attack from me, rather than actually refuting the material points being put forward.

[Palladiamors]

Will you please stop discussing me as a person. It's weird. If you take issue with the things I say, discuss the things I say.

I asked you a question and Cleretic answered, confirming my suspicions. I did some digging afterwards and that supported my hypothesis, you have a bad habit of taking presented information and turning it into something completely different. I don't know if you genuinely misunderstand the information or if you're working off a version of events as you want them to be but either way, it makes it hard to talk about apples when you keep insisting they are oranges.

[Kennar]

All right, so... with all of the previous story, I could justify that my character was caught up in things much bigger than herself and far beyond her control--figuratively pulled from place to place doing the things that needed to be done, first by being the right person at the right time, and later by being the only one capable enough to do it. I could accept the lack of agency she had, even if I didn't always like it. The threads of fate, and all that jazz.

However, being coerced into helping a teenager Kennar has known for all of an afternoon ascend to the throne of a nation she knows eff-all about is something she would have little trouble saying "no" to. We (as players) are even given a dialog option about not wanting to get involved, but it's completely negated by G'raha saying, "Come on. Come oooOOOnnnnn!" True, he does give us an out, but I'll eat my hat if anything works out that way.

As for the other justifications:

"But that's the way they do things in Tural!"
So? Find someone else. If G'raha and Krile want to help, more power to them. Kennar will cheer them on from the stands.

"But if the bad guy wins, he will invade Eorzea!"
So? Isn't that why the Scions spent so much time establishing the Eorzean Alliance? They need to handle their own shit sometime. If they can't muster a defense against a foreign military that has to cross a vast, mostly uncharted sea, then that's their problem.


From a narrative standpoint, I want to see my character actually do something, rather than go along for the ride. I think it would have been awesome if the WoL would have started the new story, instead of being pulled into it. It would be easy to send letters to the Scions saying, "I'm traveling to the Neu Wirlde to see what's up. If you want to come with, meet me in Limsa in a month." I wanted us to go with no goals aside from seeing what's there--adventuring in the purest sense. Then we can meet new characters and get caught up in new stories. But now it looks like we're going to be stuck in a *shudder* tournament arc.

There at least better be a lot of fanservice in the beach episode...

[Lady_Silvermoon]

*snip*

Has it ever occurred to you that when someone comes back to discuss the topic and see instead a discussion of what a garbage person they are, that might make them less enthused to discuss the topic with people who they know will dismiss everything they say because they've been deemed lesser?

I know you know this because this is why you do it. You know with enough bullying, you won't have to deal with dissent, and you're right, my interest in posting on these forums is at zero. Soon, I will be gone but before that happens, I want you to know it's because of nasty behavior rather than any ideological victory. Most the arguments made against my points conflict with one another, though I can't put that on you as you've made literally no arguments against my points, only me, which is why I'm addressing you as you seem to be the ringleader when it comes to bullying on these forums.

I asked you a question and Cleretic answered, confirming my suspicions. I did some digging afterwards and that supported my hypothesis, you have a bad habit of taking presented information and turning it into something completely different. I don't know if you genuinely misunderstand the information or if you're working off a version of events as you want them to be but either way, it makes it hard to talk about apples when you keep insisting they are oranges.

The disagreements aren't over objective reality. We're not debating over if the pen is blue or black. The disagreements are over moral judgements and yes, I find devolving an entire species down to apes removing their memories and history as something bad even if the game tells me it's something good. I find traveling to a country and installing a person we just met as their leader with power purchased by the systematic extermination of billions of people as bad, even though the game assures me they are into that.

Given how horrific I find EW moral messaging, I was hoping, beyond hope, they'd change directions, but no, they are doubling down on having the WoL do bad things while assuring us they are good things actually. And if I don't simply agree, go along with it and enjoy my colonialist adventure, then clearly there is something wrong with me as a person.

[MikkoAkure]

Given how horrific I find EW moral messaging, I was hoping, beyond hope, they'd change directions, but no, they are doubling down on having the WoL do bad things while assuring us they are good things actually. And if I don't simply agree, go along with it and enjoy my colonialist adventure, then clearly there is something wrong with me as a person.

There is nothing at all in the story saying that we’re going to Tural to colonize them. You made this up on your own.

People have problems with your posts because it feels like you purposefully choose the least charitable take you can make and then make a twitter-worthy emotionally-charged rant.

We are not going to Tural to plunder their resources and enslave their people. Nothing at all in the story suggests that. And as I said before, and what you must have completely missed, one of the four claimants to the throne is actively interested in invading us. Unless you believe that all countries should be free to invade others with no interference from the people to be invaded, it is in our best interest to at least go there to see what’s up.

In addition, Wuk Lumat is not the only claimant to the throne interested in outside help as another has been in Sharlayan this whole time and he or another claimant has already hired Urianger and Thancred. No government officials at all are going to Tural. Just a bunch of mercenaries.

Mamool Ja mercenaries have been in Limsa Lominsa for 5 years and some have even broken away to make their own society in Vylbrand, butchered the locals to make their own castle, and actively assault adventurers. I don’t believe we’re going to Tural to do the same thing and the idea of such is flawed.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

*snip*

The WoL is one of the most powerful people in the world, and we're using that power to put a complete stranger on the throne of a country we've never even been to. That's both unwise and unethical. With great power comes great responsibility...unless you're the WoL, then YOLO!!! And the fact that we've been told one of them wants to invade us makes our actions worse, not better, because that means we're installing her to serve our own political interests. That's colonizing. Doesn't require us to enslave their people or whatever, what we are doing, is in fact, what colonization looks like most of the time. Take one or some of their people, the ones most sympathetic to our interests, and put them in power. Usually it only takes money, violence often isn't necessary. And what about her people's interests? Maybe the reason she had to cross the sea to find help is because no one there wants her for their leader. And one out of the four contestants wanting to attack us is a weak excuse for what we're about to do, and yes, it is an excuse, so is they are fine with it, so it's okay. Same way the house elves were fine with it, so it was okay to own them...

And the fact that they had their excuses set up and ready to go meant they knew some of the player base would take issue with heading to fantasy South America and colonizing it...so they knew better and did it anyway.

And yes, I am being uncharitable, because last expansion they set my character up to be directly responsible for 10+ genocides, so yes, I am a bit sensitive about the moral messaging coming from this game as of late.

[Mayhemmer]

Wild...

... Anyway. Let it be mentioned that no claimant has been put on the throne yet. This isn't a thing that's going to happen in quest #1 when we're straight off the boat. Wuk Lamat may not ever be put on the throne. I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up not landing it, or even outright refusing the position (at least I'd hope to be surprised, in a good way). I'm pretty hyped for where the story might go, and hope we see a lot of character development throughout it.

[ZavosEsperian]

They do this constantly, yes. This is just a particularly efficient form, because we've all played the part of the game they're misremembering/misunderstanding/ignoring like, two days ago.

The issue they are having does not deal with the words on the page, but how it is presented against their own, personal, IRL beliefs. This could be for a variety of reasons, most likely all personal, but the point of the matter is that regardless of the framing the story does, it cannot escape the appearance where we are backing a specific person inside of a presumed contest for power, which is extremely beneficial for the foreign party as they are able to likely receive various concessions, some more significant than the rest, and where personal political favor can occur.

This is not too unheard of in the realm of IRL politics either, as nations or people will rally around someone who they perceive as the best person in regards to their own interests, be it personal or for a wider group of people and they will do this regardless of citizenship, especially with the reach of the internet. Foreign influence in these sorts of political contests, especially when a foreign military/fighting force/etc is involved, is generally not viewed as a good thing at this point in time. Working with foreign allies typically is less of an issue but can still raise a few eyebrows to this day as well. Working with a foreign adversary or someone viewed as an adversary for political gains is HEAVILY scrutinized.

Herein lies the issue. While it is encouraged behavior to speak with foreign powers in the game's setting (as it also typically is IRL for people inside of a democratic system as this happens rather often), us directly picking one side over the other in the setting's case, let alone us (WoL mainly) physically going over to Tural, is like having a world-class military IRL being present inside of the nation where this contest is going to take place. The WoL is also part of one of the three Grand Companies of Eorzea, and thus is actually a member of a formal military and as this cannot be skipped (using a story skip makes you a member of your starting nation's Grand Company), it is canonical. This can be extremely intimidating for anyone who lives in the nation as now a foreign power can project its military within its own borders during this process. And while we ourselves in the setting do not have a nation behind us per say, it is a rather common settlement in some parts of the world where it is the own citizenry of the foreign power who do not want the military to be present in a different nation, particularly if it is for political reasons related to political contests.

I do not know which country you are from, nor do I care. What I can tell is that for people from more war fatigued nations where it is there military conducting missions and being the one used globally, this is an unavoidable interpretation. This can also happen if someone's nation has also been subjected to this sort of behavior in the past, as people do have long memories and can read history.

Now that I have provided a perspective of how Lady_Silvermoon could have interpretations or opinions like she does, you directly attacking her character or making assumptions about her is extremely rude. You appear to demean and use remarks aimed directly at someone's overall character as a means of attempting to win arguments. The use of ad hominem is considered extremely weak in terms of actual arguing since you are directing arguments at a person themselves, hence why I do not like engaging with people who use it as a primary means of debate. From my experience IRL with people who do this, it usually means their arguments are, at best, extremely flimsy and are heavily based on personally held beliefs which do not necessarily reflect the matter being discussed.

Were I to use arguments presented to me from other forum posters, I would have to remind you your WoL does fondly remember characters you may not agree with at all or characters you despise and this is all within canon and directly stated. Emet-Selch seems to be one such character I have seen floating around recently as your WoL recalls him with relative frequency and wants you to remember they all once lived and you were friends with him. Whether you like this or not is a personal opinion, but this is what the game states, and is a reason why it is good to remember people can have different interpretations and feelings about specific events.

Finally, as I believe I have spoken about your behavior once before, I really must thank you for providing evidence backing up my claims without me needing to dig through old messages prior to that initial post. I do not like wasting my time with that. You should probably look that post over again and familiarize yourself with the behaviors I outlined.

[Vallavia]

... Anyway. Let it be mentioned that no claimant has been put on the throne yet. This isn't a thing that's going to happen in quest #1 when we're straight off the boat. Wuk Lamat may not ever be put on the throne. I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up not landing it, or even outright refusing the position (at least I'd hope to be surprised, in a good way).

Hell, from what we've been shown we may not even personally participate in the contest for more than five minutes before it's eclipsed entirely by a greater threat. I get the sense we may be counting our discourse chickens before they hatch, but I suppose with half a year with nothing else to do it's bound to happen.