Can we have an honest conversation about the Scions? Dawn Trail

[Volgia]

But what if I want a dishonest conversation about the Scions

[OdinelStarrei]

Ryne literally rode a Scion's legacy into the main party. I said it would have to be very familiar/safe. Ryne is depending heavily on the context of Minfilia and Thancred to even begin to work as a character.

Yes, that's my point, she does fulfill that spot, and then she LEAVES. She builds on what came before in order to maintain plotline consistency and bolster Thancred's character, but branches out in Eden and the void quests, she's not a default member of the cast, and the greater narrative isn't monopolized by her after her relevance. That's the issue I have, the only default character should be mine. Having the scions hang around me all the time is making a large world feel small by limiting my interactions with newer characters.

I'm not even saying they are bad, I just don't want to feel constrained narratively by them, when the storylines I enjoyed most are the ones where there are less Scions present at all.

EDIT: Zero is also building on the void plot from Unukalhai and Cylva! Legacy of a character? How about literally working towards and accomplishing the goals of an entire different cast of characters you haven't met yet, despite having the same over arching mission statement and world origin? That is incredibly contrived. At least Minfilia gets a send off for her death! The other void residents don't even get non-optional voiced dialogue because of how hopelessly entangled the entire mess is.

[strawberrycake]

She's memorable because she died and she was a love interest of a Scion. Now, if a new character is introduced and is *familiar* (which breaks the rules I stated earlier) because they have some historical context with a Scion, that's different.

That still doesn't change how shes literally just a plot device where Moonbryda was her own person who existed outside Urianger. Zero also Side Lined Unukalhai and Cylva In her plot Deviceness for the Void as filler content. Zero is literally Filler, shes a Calorie to give us a story inbetween 6.0 and 7.0 where we had 2 people with better writing and more personality, like Moonbryda, and would have served as better people to tell this filler plot.

[Turtledeluxe]

That still doesn't change how shes literally just a plot device where Moonbryda was her own person who existed outside Urianger. Zero also Side Lined Unukalhai and Cylva In her plot Deviceness for the Void as filler content. Zero is literally Filler, shes a Calorie to give us a story inbetween 6.0 and 7.0 where we had 2 people with better writing and more personality, like Moonbryda, and would have served as better people to tell this filler plot.

You can say any Scion is a plot device in ARR outside maybe Thancred (attractive male sassy bonus) when they are first being introduced. Saying something is filler or bad writing just brings us nowhere because you can't prove Zero is filler. What we do know is she is thematically tied to Cecil, which is someone unfamiliar to XIV and has to work 10x as hard to have the same resonance as someone who is thematically operating with the Scions and the MSQ. Besides if we want to be really real, the Warrior Light is filler in the patch content, not everyone else.

Yes, that's my point, she does fulfill that spot, and then she LEAVES. She builds on what came before in order to maintain plotline consistency and bolster Thancred's character, but branches out in Eden and the void quests, she's not a default member of the cast, and the greater narrative isn't monopolized by her after her relevance. That's the issue I have, the only default character should be mine. Having the scions hang around me all the time is making a large world feel small by limiting my interactions with newer characters.

So what you're saying is, given the perfect launching pad plus some time in the game she was able to become popular. That follows exactly what I am saying.

EDIT: Zero is also building on the void plot from Unukalhai and Cylva! Legacy of a character

This is a reach. No one pays attention to side characters or side quests as much as Scions/MSQ. The writers glossing over them is pretty much evidence of that. The main focus was that Ascians ruined the world, which I already said played a small role in Zero's origin story. As far as joining the Scions, yes she did, and you're actively proving my point by hating it. "I hate it, so contrived, get out of my Scions ".

And I can't emphasize enough, if anyone is (objectively) filler in the patch content, it's WoL, because they totally are outside of probably 0.2% of the plot where they have some mechanical function in the plot I'm not thinking of (but even with going to the First, Zero could've done that so I am unsure).

You'd really have to scrap the Scion's altogther imo to make any improvement in this area (aside from giving it time) because I'm just not sure they can appease everyone by bringing someone new into this group that all came together and persisted under this same decade long struggle. It's like...who is going to live up to that really? Hence why I said it would be very difficult.

[SieyaM]

In the end we all know how the broad stokes of this expansion will turn out since the Scions will be present. There will be some ultimately superficial disagreement of this succession that everyone will get over the moment it is revealed that some kind of big bad is in the background that we must defeat with the power of friendship again. It would be more surprising if they arrived in the new world and had the self awareness to realize that as people with no knowledge of the region or it's history involving the two heirs that they have no business getting involved in the political machinations of this nation.

[OdinelStarrei]

You can say any Scion is a plot device in ARR outside maybe Thancred (attractive male sassy bonus) when they are first being introduced. Saying something is filler or bad writing just brings us nowhere because you can't prove Zero is filler. What we do know is she is thematically tied to Cecil, which is someone unfamiliar to XIV and has to work 10x as hard to have the same resonance as someone who is thematically operating with the Scions and the MSQ.



So what you're saying is, given the perfect launcing pad plus some time in the game she was able to become popular. That follows exactly what I am saying. Besides if we want to be really real, the Warrior Light is filler in the patch content, not everyone else.



This is a reach. No one pays attention to side characters or side quests as much as Scions/MSQ. The writer's glossing over them is pretty much evidence of that. The main focus was that Ascians ruined the world, which I already said played a small role in Zero's origin story. As far as joining the Scion's, yes she did, and you're actively proving my point by hating it. "I hate it, so contrived, get out of my Scions ".

That doesn't make any sense. You said, "People will hate new characters by default because they are NOT the Scions we've grown to love for 10 years." I am saying I do not feel that is true for me, because there are several new characters both major and minor who we actively fight serious, but maybe not world ending, threats with that have resonated deeper without really needing to rely on previous plot details. Beastmaster lore builds on Garlemald, but is distinctly separated with one of their faction joining you in Zadnor. The cardinals build off of the Warriors of Darkness, but are woven into the more personal narrative of those specific lore quests, usually by a parallel or an irony of sorts, that section does double work, because it needs to elaborate on the original WoD team, and the new burgeoning team on the 1st. Notice how I did not say popular for anyone, I said that I liked them, I'm not speaking for anyone else.

What I am actually saying is that, in line with what the rest of these paragraphs say, is that there are several NEWLY introduced characters who I feel have been beneficial to the narrative, and I do not throw a fit when they leave. When Y'shtola got merked in SB and was out for the ENTIRE expansion, that was fine, I didn't lose my mind. When Tataru stopped being involved in ShB, because rationally she couldn't be, I didn't complain about it, because it made sense. Lyse being a big part of post-HW, only to not really be involved in things past Ghimlyt Dark next expansion, totally ok for me. Paplymo dies via self-sacrifice, and doesn't get brought back! That's something that probably won't happen again.

That's my primary stance against your statements. Scions can and have taken backseats. And nothing awful happened, there were no riots. I don't even hate Zero as a character, there's simply not enough even there for me to have super strong feelings about, and while I'm not a fan how other characters storylines were jerryrigged to hers, it feels unnatural, but like most things nowadays, I feel mostly nothing. Why waste my time hating fictional characters when I can hate "real" people on the official forums? (This is a joke)

And to be honest, G'raha was a side content character who became a main character. Estinien, also a side character in a job quest, becomes a main character. Cid was a main character who is now a side character. It's honestly pretty fluid over the entire roster, anyone has potential to become a main character for a storyline they want to tell or the content they come from, assuming it doesn't have a litany of prerequisites, it doesn't keep most from being off the roster in a practical fashion. And just because their sidequests doesn't make them any less canon or debatably relevant. Bahamut is side-content technically, and they bring him up like every other patch. CT, Alexander and Omega are all side-content, but are canonized in that things like Shadowbringers itlself, or the Omicrons don't exist without your aforementioned buildup happening in non-required content. This is part of keeping cohesive world building, which is why when Zero comes along and multiple plotlines that were adjacent to the MSQ were ignored (note: not retconned), when that was not what had happened with other side content-turned-MSQ relevant, it felt so awkward to me.

If I'm filler character in patch content, maybe someone else should've killed Nidhogg, Tsukuyomi, Themis (twice) then, lmao. Scions certainly weren't there to help me kill any of those.

[SieyaM]

I can't help but think of Marvel, and how grand it's been going for them after retiring the popular original team they built their universe around while hoping their fans would be interested in an all new cast. Or when Paramount retired the Star Trek: The Next Generation crew and provided us with the cast of Voyager to compensate.

Where's my sarcasm emoji..

Wouldn't the argument here be more along the lines of them keeping the original crew and not having the next generation at all?

[Derio]

Honestly it should just be Krile, Graha and Estinien. Everyone else should have stayed in Eorzea. A brief introduction to those 3 characters in the beginning of Dawntrail and go into the expansion. That way it sets up a true new player experience from this expansion forward.

I wouldnt have a problem with the scions if the devs didnt go through all that work and story building to disband them.

[Ath192]

Wouldn't the argument here be more along the lines of them keeping the original crew and not having the next generation at all?

That's exactly what the argument he is making is. Hence he even mentioned he was being sarcastic.

Here is the thing though, the incoming cast has to be more mature and relatable than the current scions. People generally don't like a bunch of new kids taking over with a bunch of naive and idealistic tendencies. There's good and noble plotlines that are more realistic, and then there's happily ever after nothing bad ever happens to the main cast cringe. I would venture to say we are more in the latter camp as of now.

I would take any plotline at this point over being the bodyguard of two teens teaching nations to be good again and getting involved in politics. What's worse, is said political leaders taking them seriously. I mean, the game had Alphinaud running around with a private army early in this game, and fortunately it turned out bad, because if the crystal braves had been successful, I do think I would've lost all interest in the plot going forward. But that aside, we have liberated Ishgard, Ala Mhigo, restored Doma, united all the city states with the beast tribes, dethroned everyone we didn't like, opened up Sharlayan, saved the universe, taught the garleans to be nice and now we're going to another continent with the same people to presumably go tell them how to live their lives.

Part of me would prefer a plot where we go to a place and not stage a coup d'etat to install a new regime or change the style of leadership. I would love to just visit a foreign place where we don't get deeply involved in the political structure and our adventure happens without us interrupting the form of governance in the location.

Come to think of it. How many leaders of a city/nation have we murdered?

There's the pope for HW, the garlean govt in doma for SB, Vauthry in the first for SHB, Garlemald's leadership for EW

Like, everywhere we go a governments head will roll at this point.

Actually, in the trailer for Dawntrail it sure looks like we're in the process of beheading another. But I will reserve my judgment until we know for sure. We are literally installing a new world order.

[SieyaM]

That's exactly what the argument he is making is. Hence he even mentioned he was being sarcastic.

Here is the thing though, the incoming cast has to be more mature and relatable than the current scions. People generally don't like a bunch of new kids taking over with a bunch of naive and idealistic tendencies. There's good and noble plotlines that are more realistic, and then there's happily ever after nothing bad ever happens to the main cast cringe. I would venture to say we are more in the latter camp as of now.

I would take any plotline at this point over being the bodyguard of two teens teaching nations to be good again and getting involved in politics. What's worse, is said political leaders taking them seriously. I mean, the game had Alphinaud running around with a private army early in this game, and fortunately it turned out bad, because if the crystal braves had been successful, I do think I would've lost all interest in the plot going forward. But that aside, we have liberated Ishgard, Ala Mhigo, restored Doma, united all the city states with the beast tribes, dethroned everyone we didn't like, opened up Sharlayan, saved the universe, taught the garleans to be nice and now we're going to another continent with the same people to presumably go tell them how to live their lives.

Part of me would prefer a plot where we go to a place and not stage a coup d'etat to install a new regime or change the style of leadership. I would love to just visit a foreign place where we don't get deeply involved in the political structure and our adventure happens without us interrupting the form of governance in the location.

Come to think of it. How many leaders of a city/nation have we murdered?

There's the pope for HW, the garlean govt in doma for SB, Vauthry in the first for SHB, Garlemald's leadership for EW

Like, everywhere we go a governments head will roll at this point.

Actually, in the trailer for Dawntrail it sure looks like we're in the process of beheading another. But I will reserve my judgment until we know for sure. We are literally installing a new world order.

I do wonder how they will try to sell this as something other than Scions visiting a foreign land they know nothing of and imposing their own ideals on them while installing leadership they want.