We need to talk about the PC Gamer article

[StarRosie]

Notice in your post that critics are pretty respectfully suggesting maybe looking at the topic title and perhaps reading some of its content and deciding whether or not it's worth it for you to engage.

And I am pointing out that such a sentiment goes both ways. Yet whenever a thread that would run counter to this one is up, something more on the positive side. This mentality is never practiced by the critics. But then those critics turn around, in a thread like this one and say "Hey, stay in your lane. If you don't like this thread, don't read it." which to me is again, both hilarious and infuriating.

And that the reason some suggest unsub, is two reasons. One, some are just suggesting others who have had a long history of "Never satisfied", employ their strongest tool. Speaking with their wallet. See posts by Jojoya. And two, if you have a community center, and 6 people keep coming in and screaming the sky is falling. And that's it. And the owners of the center won't do anything. There does eventually come a point where the community needs to decide if they need to show those people the door or not. And that's just what I see that as. Is it helpful? Eeehhh......not really. I think my entire time on these forums I have told maybe...two people they may want to consider unsubbing. One was a long time ago, the other was someone who just genuinely seemed addicted to the game and being...very harmful to themselves.

Personally, I think everyone should maybe grow up a bit and learn to have an actual civil discussion rather then suggest echo chambers. But I have a better chance of winning the lottery then that happening. Either way, no real skin off my back.

[Turtledeluxe]

And I am pointing out that such a sentiment goes both ways. Yet whenever a thread that would run counter to this one is up, something more on the positive side. This mentality is never practiced by the critics. But then those critics turn around, in a thread like this one and say "Hey, stay in your lane. If you don't like this thread, don't read it." which to me is again, both hilarious and infuriating.

Personally, I think everyone should maybe grow up a bit and learn to have an actual civil discussion rather then suggest echo chambers. But I have a better chance of winning the lottery then that happening. Either way, no real skin off my back.

Can you please explain how it goes both ways? How is me asking you to take some accountability and not engage with ideas on the forum you don't like equivalent to or worse than you telling someone to unsub, which disengages them from the entire game and forum? The Discussion forum is not an echo chamber. You actively seek out content you don't like and cause problems, now you are upset someone is pointing out the flaw of your "unsub" logic and the redundancy of pointing out sales. What you're doing is being selective and then blaming other people for it. Just don't engage. I don't want to talk about RDM rotations today, guess where I am not going? Threads about RDM. It's quite simple.

Let's be extremely generous. Why isn't it enough to say the discussions have been had already or the author is wrong? You exceed the space you have to interact with the idea and jump to erasing it altogether. It isn't "I disagree" it's "I don't even want to read this or hear this". That's what block is for. Its not anyone's responsibility to ubsub.

And I don't need to read posts about unsubbing again. People are unsubbing and it's an ongoing process. Your magic scenario where 1 million players simultaneously log off in protest of the game is never going happen. What happens is a couple of years of losing players, losing engagement, and losing money. Thr natural bounce of 7.0 will bandaid the problem, but as the article astutely points out the content needs to actually hit or people will just be over the game once MSQ is done exactly as with 6.0.

[StarRosie]

Can you please explain how it goes both ways?

I have...twice. Pretty clearly. So you are either actively ignoring what's being said. Or it's flying over your head because you are conflating two separate things or too busy shoving words I am not saying at all down my throat. Or did you miss the part where I said I don't believe telling people to unsub isn't really going to help? I merely explained why others say it. Never once have I advocated that it is the right course. Or the points of trying to get you to see the forums are for BOTH positive and negative feedback? You want me to explain it AGAIN? Fine, lets roll it back.

As I keep saying the solution is not for critics to ubsub but rather for defenders to perhaps stay playing the game where being informed doesn't matter.

This first and foremost is where I disagree, it just reads as advocating for anyone who has a positive outlook of the game to stay off the forums. Which reads advocating for an echo chamber of "Critical" or negative feedback only. Even though, as I have said, the forums are for both positive and negative feedback. I asked you, where are people supposed to go if they want to leave positive feedback in regards to a change or piece of content? Or feedback that tells SE they did something right? And you dodged the question in favor of shoving words I'm not saying down my throat.

After all what exactly are you expecting in a place for discussions? Endless praise? Can't you just find that in the actual game?

And this overall further solidifies what I said in the very first reply. You are conflating discussion with negative feedback. Which is why I asked the question "Where are those who want to provide positive feedback supposed to go?" which again, you dodged in favor of shoving words down my throat.

Now please keep in mind, I am not saying you have outright advocated for an echo chamber. Because you haven't. Just like I haven't said telling people to unsub is a good thing, or that it helps. Or really...anything you have said that I am saying in your latest reply to me. I am merely saying, that's how this suggestion/idea READS. At least to me.

If you don't like thread, don't read it. That's my suggestion.

Have you considered blocking people and ignoring their threads when they consistently make posts you don't like? That is a function on this site.

The reason I say that these sentiments go both ways is because, and I'm gonna be blunt here. Y'all never practice what you preach. Anytime a thread pops up that tries to provide positive feedback, the 'critics' descend upon said thread and be hypocritical jackasses. If ya don't like people telling others to unsub...why not block those people and ignore them? The option exists for you too ya know. However, that actually doesn't help anything when it comes to...actual discussion. But when a thread like this one pops up, and people overall disagree with it or something. The critics start parroting...

If you don't like thread, don't read it. That's my suggestion.

This all again, reads like advocating for echo chambers. Because if someone disagrees with the point of the thread, that also means...they don't like the thread. So, if we follow your suggestion, we cannot read the thread and post a disagreement. So what does that leave? Only posts that agree with the thread.

Now, keep in mind that I am fully aware that to some degree, me saying that goes both ways also means the advocation for echo chambers would go both ways. But I also pointed out that the jackass behavior is on both sides. Which is also why I say...

Personally, I think everyone should maybe grow up a bit and learn to have an actual civil discussion rather then suggest echo chambers.

Which, you know, would probably help the forums not just be more tolerable, but actually serve their purpose. Full honesty, I was overall just going to ignore this thread after reading the article and some of the posts. But then I saw your post and felt like that was something I should maybe voice my thoughts on. Do I regret that choice now? Sorta. But it's better to voice your thoughts if something feels wrong. Which is also a ringing endorsement of "If you feel something is wrong with the game, say something." ya know.

Personally, when it comes to the article this thread is focusing on...it just reeks of a quick piece meant to generate some clicks. The only thing I agree with is that the content formula is a tad stale. But everything else just reads like they browsed reddit or even here for some negative points and put them in the article, cause rage clicks are still clicks. Is that being cynical? Maybe. But I also know three people who have worked in game/internet journalism for a combined 35 years, and they've told me before that this is a pretty common practice. Especially if someone is behind quota. Or at least, it was in their day and place of work.

Your magic scenario where 1 million players simultaneously log off in protest of the game is never going happen.

First off...that ain't something I'm advocating for. But secondly, I feel this needs to be said on this point in particular. People also said this about WoW. Again, that's not me advocating for folks to unsub, just that maybe 'never' is the wrong word there. Unlikely is probably the better choice. But, yeah. Lots of folks said this about WoW and uh...look what happened.

But all and all, I really want to stress. Like hard stress. I am not saying you've advocated or directly said "Leave the forums to be echo chambers for negative feedback only!" and if at some point I accidently did because I missed it in my proof reading, I apologize. But overall, I'm just saying that's how it all READS and voicing my disagreement and thoughts on that. Also, understand that I got nothing against you, or really anyone here. So, if I said anything that gave off that impression. Apologies.

I'm also probably done here, cause I'm putting too much focus on something that's just generating frustration. And that's not good for my health. So, have a good one. Live your best life.

[Turtledeluxe]

snip

To be honest, no I do not read over the "why" behind why people say to unsub. There can be any number of motivations, none of them make sense. That's whole point of all my posts. People are unsubbing. What more do you want? When I say you, it's the general you. Do you want the author to unsub, the player you're talking to unsub? That just means you're not willing to take accountability for your own browsing habits? And it's not even equivalent because a player cannot just "opt out" of the two minute meta like you can opt out of a thread based on the title. But also the game has a lot more than even the combat so why is the solution to unsub? It doesn't make sense, just admit it and move on. It's a faulty insult based on someone's own incompetence to solve problems or address isolated concerns. It's throwing the whole burger away bc the restauraunt put mayo on it and you hate mayo.

[StarRosie]

To be honest, no I do not read over the "why" behind why people say to unsub. There can be any number of motivations, none of them make sense.

There are plenty that make sense. Jojoya gives an incredibly valid one, speak with your wallet. Make a choice that is both smart for you and tells SE that you are unhappy with the product. And no, this isn't trying to get some "Magic scenario" to happen. It is general advice towards one person to make a decision that may or may not be the healthier decision for them. Does it make any form of financial sense for a player to pay 15$ a month for a game that has not been satisfying said player for 2 years? Or 4 years? Or more? Or one of the two times I have ever suggested someone consider unsubbing, when the person was showing some pretty clear signs of addiction towards the game, and it was making them irrational and ultra aggressive towards basically everyone. Do you think they should just be allowed to continue down that path? You SHOULD read why someone would suggest it. You SHOULD read someone's arguments and try to understand them. Because if you don't, and yet argue against them anyway, you are arguing against a strawman at that point. At that point, any argument you make is basically irrelevant because it isn't addressing anything someone is saying. You're just ranting against an imaginary argument. That's not discussion.

When I say you, it's the general you.

Yeah, I would suggest ya stop doing that. Because all it has done is made you come off like you're arguing against a strawman, and make you come off like a tool. Cause right now, when I'm using "You", I am strictly referring to you. Save for like, one part in quotations below.

That just means you're not willing to take accountability for your own browsing habits?

No? Again, maybe you should actually READ someone's arguments and understand what they are trying to say? Not treat them like they are part of some monolithic hivemind? Maybe then you will see they might be making a valid point and are therefore fully taking accountability for their browsing habits and see that maybe they aren't this strawman version of themselves you conjured up. Don't get me wrong. There are idiots, on both ends of this. But...If you do not like seeing people making "You should probably unsub." arguments. Maybe consider employing the same tools you are suggesting they use? By constantly engaging with these arguments, that you openly admit you do not read the reasoning of, are you also not taking accountability for your own browsing habits? I've blocked people on here who I just do not want to engage with, because they made my time browsing here miserable. However, the block function also leaves an enormous amount to be desired in terms of, as one user on here puts it, curating my browsing experience.

And it's not even equivalent because a player cannot just "opt out" of the two minute meta like you can opt out of a thread based on the title.

That's what going to play something else or unsubbing is! To pull something I talked about in another thread. "Play the game we have. Not the game we want." This is the mantra for Destiny 2's main PVP subreddit. And the whole meaning behind it is "You play the meta we have. Not the meta you want. If you try to play like we're in X meta while we are in Y meta, all you'll do is lose. Advocate for the changes you want. Give clear, calm, concise feedback on what the issues are. But when you log in to play, either play the game we currently have. Or don't and make yourself miserable. Your choice." it is a mentality meant to keep players from torturing themselves by playing a garbage meta that they hate. A mentality that puts the responsibility for their enjoyment of the game, into their hands. I hated the healing meta that popped up in Season of the Haunted and it stuck around for two seasons. So guess what? I didn't play PVP for two seasons. (Though, given the current state of the game...I don't play it at all right now.) And a lot of other people didn't play that meta either. So that forced Bungie to look at the feedback and the healing meta got nerfed. Hell, this even applied to high end PVE in that game. The overabundance of healing trivialized parts of high end PVE. And it also applies here too. Don't like the two minute meta? Fine, either go play content where it doesn't matter, or something else entirely. Don't get me wrong or try to twist my words. Players should, and I'm gonna repeat that, SHOULD advocate for the changes they want. Give clear, calm, concise feedback. But they should also make a choice that is HEALTHY for them too. Not continue to torture themselves by engaging with something they hate. What that healthy choice is, that is ultimately up to them. Some may give a suggestion. But again, the choice of what that healthy option is for them, is ultimately up to them. I'm not going to directly tell people to play something else or unsub. I ain't their mom. I might suggest delving into some side content they haven't done. But I'm not telling them to. I might suggest play something else. But I'm not telling them to. The choice is still their choice.

But also the game has a lot more than even the combat so why is the solution to unsub?

I don't know, maybe read the WHY and it might make sense. And even if it doesn't or you disagree, at least you will be able to make an INFORMED counterargument.

It doesn't make sense, just admit it and move on

If you don't read the reasoning behind it, yeah. It won't make sense. But maybe it might if you actually read what the person is saying.

It's a faulty insult based on someone's own incompetence to solve problems or address isolated concerns.

I genuinely do not understand how you can call that an insult. Is it always the best response? Oh god no. But it's not an insult.

It's throwing the whole burger away bc the restauraunt put mayo on it and you hate mayo.

Maybe they hate mayo because they're allergic to it. Again, this all just wraps back to maybe you should read what people are saying. Or employ the tools you are suggesting others use. But it also all comes back to something I said earlier...

Personally, I think everyone should maybe grow up a bit and learn to have an actual civil discussion rather then suggest echo chambers.

That's my Ted Talk. Thanks for coming. And again. I ain't got nothing against you. So if I said some things that are too harsh or came off mean spirited? My apologies. Live your best life, have a nice day. And I hope you have/had a happy holidays.

[Jojoya]

To be honest, no I do not read over the "why" behind why people say to unsub. There can be any number of motivations, none of them make sense. That's whole point of all my posts. People are unsubbing.

So your point is to tell everyone something that any player who plays subscription based games already knows? There are always players unsubbing. They have any number of different motivations.

The point of my posts is to encourage people to make the choices that will leave them the happiest instead of miring themselves in negativity, or even worse paying to do so. Research has shown that retaining a negative mindset for long periods of time can have detrimental effects on health, both physical and mental. It is best not to stay in a situation where you are unhappy if you can avoid it. In the case of games, it's really easy to avoid.

You talk about people being inept with problem solving but just who would those be in relationship to the game content? None of us has the ability to solve problems with the game. That is in the developer's hands. Furthermore, what one person sees as a problem may not be a problem to another.

As for your burger analogy, restaurants are usually able to customize a menu offering within reason for its patrons. Theme park MMOs aren't the same. They can offer many different things but the individual things generally can't be customized to an individual patron's preference.

So the patron walks into a theme park MMO and decides to get a burger, which the theme park only makes with mayo. Either the patron can still enjoy the burger despite the mayo, or they can't.

If they can't enjoy the burger at all and they say that there is nothing else on the menu that they like, what advice would you give them?

[Turtledeluxe]

So your point is to tell everyone something that any player who plays subscription based games already knows? There are always players unsubbing. They have any number of different motivations.

The point of my posts is to encourage people to make the choices that will leave them the happiest instead of miring themselves in negativity, or even worse paying to do so. Research has shown that retaining a negative mindset for long periods of time can have detrimental effects on health, both physical and mental. It is best not to stay in a situation where you are unhappy if you can avoid it. In the case of games, it's really easy to avoid.

You talk about people being inept with problem solving but just who would those be in relationship to the game content? None of us has the ability to solve problems with the game. That is in the developer's hands. Furthermore, what one person sees as a problem may not be a problem to another.

As for your burger analogy, restaurants are usually able to customize a menu offering within reason for its patrons. Theme park MMOs aren't the same. They can offer many different things but the individual things generally can't be customized to an individual patron's preference.

So the patron walks into a theme park MMO and decides to get a burger, which the theme park only makes with mayo. Either the patron can still enjoy the burger despite the mayo, or they can't.

If they can't enjoy the burger at all and they say that there is nothing else on the menu that they like, what advice would you give them?

The problem with this interaction is that you are unknowingly pointing out how circular it has been. You ask "so you are trying to tell us an obvious truth"? Yes, because this entire discussion began with the insulting "please unsub" when people actually have unsubbed due to many of the popular complaints surrounding the game currently. Yes people also unsub for other reasons, but acting like there's no genuine critical reaction to the game right now is disingenuous.

My burger analogy has nothing to with FFXIV. It has to do with how people use the forum. "I don't like this one idea, so this voice needs to go away/unsub". Instead of solving your own problem by not engaging with the idea or maybe discrediting the article, you're throwing your hands up and saying "just unsub". If devs are the only ones who can address the concerns, then stop trying to control player feedback by telling people to unsub.

And it's not even just unsubbing-- it's less engagement. If someone subs but doesn't play an entire patch cycle, how is that improving other players' experience? Lack of engagement has a trickle down effect on every aspect of the game, significantly too many modes of play to bother mentioning.

[Jojoya]

And it's not even just unsubbing-- it's less engagement. If someone subs but doesn't play an entire patch cycle, how is that improving other players' experience? Lack of engagement has a trickle down effect on every aspect of the game, significantly too many modes of play to bother mentioning.

We don't need every player remaining subbed for an entire patch cycle for other players to have a good game experience. Even now there are more players logged on every day than a single player could possibly interact with (except maybe on Maduin - Maduin is strangely quiet even by Dynamis standards).

Lack of engagement has always been there for many players at the end of a patch cycle. They've earned the rewards they want so they stop logging in while playing other games. They'll come back for the next patch.

It is nothing new to this game, or to any other long running subscription based online game. There are always those peaks and valley in subscriptions once the game has been released for a while and hype dies out. New content comes out, the hype builds back up and players return for a little while before quitting again.

If the LB census numbers are fairly accurate in representing the population state of the game, things are fine. Compare the most recent numbers to the census taken shortly after the release of patch 5.58

Patch 5.58: 1.2 million active characters over level 60, represents 760k active continuing characters, 230k returning characters and 210k new characters.

Current (just before patch 6.55): 1.11 million active characters over level 70, represents 790 active continuing characters, 220k returning characters and 100k new characters.

Those numbers are almost the same outside of the new characters (no WoW exodus this time around). The active continuing characters (the number important to your engagement claim) is slightly higher than it was at the closest equivalent period in Shadowbringers.

There is not less engagement this expansion than in the past. What we're seeing right now is the population numbers stabilizing after the effects of the WoW exodus and most of those players going back to WoW because Dragonflight turned out better than Shadowlands was (or because they're Classic WoW junkies).

The difference for you is probably that this time around, you're one of those feeling disaffected and so you're paying more attention to the shifts in player population over the course of the expansion. In previous expansions, others were feeling disaffected for their own reasons and quit even though you continued to play. Those shifts are normal for MMOs.

Separate out your feelings from what you assume others are feeling. They're responsible for their own choices, you are responsible just for yourself. The game is in no danger of dying any time soon. What matters is whether or not you're enjoying yourself when you log in. There's no point in paying for a game if you're just not having fun playing it anymore.

There was another poster who asked if anyone had considered that some remained subbed because they felt it was the only way to make certain their voice was heard. I'll ask you the same questions I asked them:

Do you feel like your voice is being heard? Are there changes that have been announced that make you feel like your concerns are being addressed?

Or do you feel like you're shouting into a void?

I went through this with WoW. I thought staying active on the forums would help get the word through about just how unhappy players were with changes being made to the game. Finally, I gave up in frustration after about 3 years (I was using WoW gold to sub, if it was real money I would have quit sooner), stopped posting, stopped adding game time and moved on. Returning briefly for the Battle for Azeroth pre-patch confirmed that I had made the correct decision. I just didn't enjoy the game anymore.

That was 6 years ago. The game never did die during all that time but Shadowlands was certainly a close call. The WoW developers are finally acknowledging that maybe they should have been listening to all that feedback the players had been leaving after all.

As long as players keep paying money to play the game, SE doesn't have any reason to do any differently than Blizzard did.