We need to talk about the PC Gamer article

[Turtledeluxe]

SE losing money on XIV for several quarters is a matter of public record. If you don't like thread, don't read it. That's my suggestion.

As I keep saying the solution is not for critics to ubsub but rather for defenders to perhaps stay playing the game where being informed doesn't matter. After all what exactly are you expecting in a place for discussions? Endless praise? Can't you just find that in the actual game?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

SE losing money on XIV for several quarters is a matter of public record. If you don't like thread, don't read it. That's my suggestion.

As I keep saying the solution is not for critics to ubsub but rather for defenders to perhaps stay playing the game where being informed doesn't matter. After all what exactly are you expecting in a place for discussions? Endless praise? Can't you just find that in the actual game?

How much of that is the transient "WoW refugees" who only left WoW because of the Blizzard drama at the time but then missed the game they had played for years/decades so went back anyway after the initial outrage wore off?

How much of that is the COVID spike from 2020-2021, and then wore off as people went back to work once the lockdowns/work from home periods ended?

We have two very unusual spikes due to outside variables. It's incredibly difficult to put any losses from this period on XIV alone. These are statistical anomalies, and as much as people want to ignore them when looking at the state of the game, you can't.




Also, telling us to just play the game and not come here to discuss is just as silly. This isn't the "General Complaints Forums" It's "General Discussion" You realize we may not want some changes that are proposed by other players right? This is our place to say that. Also, I've seen a lot of people on here saying the game started going downhill in 4.x and 5.x, and yet, you didn't join the forums until 4-6 years later. The time to complain about 4.x and 5.x changes has come and gone. You clearly didn't care enough back then.


One common complaint even by people who enjoy the game is the 6.x combat changes surrounding the 2 min burst windows. Also, all of my friends personally hate how much the savage tiers have turned into body count simulators.

[Turtledeluxe]

How much of that is the transient "WoW refugees" who only left WoW because of the Blizzard drama at the time but then missed the game they had played for years/decades so went back anyway after the initial outrage wore off?

How much of that is the COVID spike from 2020-2021, and then wore off as people went back to work once the lockdowns/work from home periods ended?

We have two very unusual spikes due to outside variables. It's incredibly difficult to put any losses from this period on XIV alone. These are statistical anomalies, and as much as people want to ignore them when looking at the state of the game, you can't.




Also, telling us to just play the game and not come here to discuss is just as silly. This isn't the "General Complaints Forums" It's "General Discussion" You realize we may not want some changes that are proposed by other players right? This is our place to say that. Also, I've seen a lot of people on here saying the game started going downhill in 4.x and 5.x, and yet, you didn't join the forums until 4-6 years later. The time to complain about 4.x and 5.x changes has come and gone. You clearly didn't care enough back then.


One common complaint even by people who enjoy the game is the 6.x combat changes surrounding the 2 min burst windows. Also, all of my friends personally hate how much the savage tiers have turned into body count simulators.

None of the factors you mention are that relevant because even with all those factors, it is a game by game basis as far as which company is missing year on year sales for the same duration that XIV has. How long are you going to use those excuses considering the majority of people returned to work as Endwalker launched? You could use them for the next 10 years but at the end of the day the game hasn't been retaining those players and the players they do retain aren't playing the game as much (per the Chinese producer), which is resulting in sales losses. It isn't even just ubsubs, it is all the engagement that occurs along with healthy social networks.

And yes, part of it is that games like WoW (and way more) are all stepping up their game in the live service space, which is competing with MMOs as well for player's time. That's exactly it. Is XIV competing for your time or just coasting?

And that is a dead serious question because we are stuck with this game for 10 more years. Is it seriously going to take zero creative risks? You're right, that won't be for me, and most other people either except the diehards of the base. Creative risks are what gave us the job and combat design we have now, so creatively change it again. Creative risk gave us the horrible story locked relic quest (please never do that again). I don't see what's problematic about asking for that Creative energy to get redirected toward new ideas or refined versions of old ideas that were discarded.

General discussion does not exclude criticisms. Criticisms are discussion, period.

[StarRosie]

As I keep saying the solution is not for critics to ubsub but rather for defenders to perhaps stay playing the game where being informed doesn't matter. After all what exactly are you expecting in a place for discussions? Endless praise? Can't you just find that in the actual game?

See, the issue here is that you are equating 'discussion' to just critique. Just negative feedback. If we followed your idea, where would the people who want to provide feedback or discussion that SE did something RIGHT go? Or as Valkyrie_Lenneth pointed out, disagree with proposed changes to the game in terms of job design, content design, or something. The issue is, and why some folks suggest that maybe it is time for others to find a different game, or unsub, or something. Is that when some folks DO put up threads giving some form of praise for the game doing something they like, or something they think deserves praise to encourage SE to follow that track. Some of the "Critics" of the game, descend upon these threads to talk down to people like they are dumber than a rock, insult them endlessly, and derail the thread from one trying to provide some form of positive feedback, to yet another thread regurgitating the same tired, drawn out, discussed TO DEATH points. And I find it both hilarious and infuriating that some of these "Critics" suggest others "Stay in their lane." when it comes to responding to threads like this one, but also insist they are allowed to crash and derail any thread they want because they are merely offering "Feedback". These forums exist for BOTH critique AND praise. Positive AND negative feedback.

And don't get me wrong, the things I mentioned are not exclusive to those being negative. There are bad actors on the 'positive side' too. But it's overall a "Treat others how you wish to be treated." situation. When the negative crowd decide to crash and derail threads providing praise, they should not be surprised when they get a taste of their own medicine. When their critique thread gets crashed, derailed, and turned into a praise thread. Or when it gets turned into a meme thread. (Like the otter posting apocalypse.) And vice versa applies as well. Again, the forums are for both critique and praise. And can be done so in a CIVIL manner. But, because animosity of the internet...people decide to be shitters and garbage people to each other. Because of course they do. All and all though, it just comes down to again, these forums are for both critique and praise.

So that means this...

If you don't like thread, don't read it. That's my suggestion.

And this...

Have you considered blocking people and ignoring their threads when they consistently make posts you don't like? That is a function on this site.

Goes both ways.

But, it also just creates echo chambers. But that's like...90% of the internet at this point...

And all of this doesn't even get into the fact that 9 times out of 10...you can't really tell if a thread offering critique or praise is genuine or someone trolling/trying to stir the pot. Because these forums also have that reputation as well.

[Turtledeluxe]

See, the issue here is that you are equating 'discussion' to just critique. Just negative feedback.

And don't get me wrong, the things I mentioned are not exclusive to those being negative. There are bad actors on the 'positive side' too. But it's overall a "Treat others how you wish to be treated." situation. When the negative crowd decide to crash and derail threads providing praise, they should not be surprised when they get a taste of their own medicine. When their critique thread gets crashed, derailed, and turned into a praise thread. Or when it gets turned into a meme thread. (Like the otter posting apocalypse.) And vice versa applies as well. Again, the forums are for both critique and praise. And can be done so in a CIVIL manner. But, because animosity of the internet...people decide to be shitters and garbage people to each other. Because of course they do. All and all though, it just comes down to again, these forums are for both critique and praise.

So that means this...

And this...

Goes both ways.

But, it also just creates echo chambers. But that's like...90% of the internet at this point...

And all of this doesn't even get into the fact that 9 times out of 10...you can't really tell if a thread offering critique or praise is genuine or someone trolling/trying to stir the pot. Because these forums also have that reputation as well.

Notice in your post that critics are pretty respectfully suggesting maybe looking at the topic title and perhaps reading some of its content and deciding whether or not it's worth it for you to engage. There's no push to unsub. I'm not sure what else to tell you. A major site writing a critical review of XIV is news. It isn't just negative feedback because you feel it's negative. At the end of the article the author even says they hope XIV can continue its hot streak from 6.0. You can disagree or think they're disingenuous, so why not just say that instead of "unsub". That is my central point.

[StarRosie]

Notice in your post that critics are pretty respectfully suggesting maybe looking at the topic title and perhaps reading some of its content and deciding whether or not it's worth it for you to engage.

And I am pointing out that such a sentiment goes both ways. Yet whenever a thread that would run counter to this one is up, something more on the positive side. This mentality is never practiced by the critics. But then those critics turn around, in a thread like this one and say "Hey, stay in your lane. If you don't like this thread, don't read it." which to me is again, both hilarious and infuriating.

And that the reason some suggest unsub, is two reasons. One, some are just suggesting others who have had a long history of "Never satisfied", employ their strongest tool. Speaking with their wallet. See posts by Jojoya. And two, if you have a community center, and 6 people keep coming in and screaming the sky is falling. And that's it. And the owners of the center won't do anything. There does eventually come a point where the community needs to decide if they need to show those people the door or not. And that's just what I see that as. Is it helpful? Eeehhh......not really. I think my entire time on these forums I have told maybe...two people they may want to consider unsubbing. One was a long time ago, the other was someone who just genuinely seemed addicted to the game and being...very harmful to themselves.

Personally, I think everyone should maybe grow up a bit and learn to have an actual civil discussion rather then suggest echo chambers. But I have a better chance of winning the lottery then that happening. Either way, no real skin off my back.

[Turtledeluxe]

And I am pointing out that such a sentiment goes both ways. Yet whenever a thread that would run counter to this one is up, something more on the positive side. This mentality is never practiced by the critics. But then those critics turn around, in a thread like this one and say "Hey, stay in your lane. If you don't like this thread, don't read it." which to me is again, both hilarious and infuriating.

Personally, I think everyone should maybe grow up a bit and learn to have an actual civil discussion rather then suggest echo chambers. But I have a better chance of winning the lottery then that happening. Either way, no real skin off my back.

Can you please explain how it goes both ways? How is me asking you to take some accountability and not engage with ideas on the forum you don't like equivalent to or worse than you telling someone to unsub, which disengages them from the entire game and forum? The Discussion forum is not an echo chamber. You actively seek out content you don't like and cause problems, now you are upset someone is pointing out the flaw of your "unsub" logic and the redundancy of pointing out sales. What you're doing is being selective and then blaming other people for it. Just don't engage. I don't want to talk about RDM rotations today, guess where I am not going? Threads about RDM. It's quite simple.

Let's be extremely generous. Why isn't it enough to say the discussions have been had already or the author is wrong? You exceed the space you have to interact with the idea and jump to erasing it altogether. It isn't "I disagree" it's "I don't even want to read this or hear this". That's what block is for. Its not anyone's responsibility to ubsub.

And I don't need to read posts about unsubbing again. People are unsubbing and it's an ongoing process. Your magic scenario where 1 million players simultaneously log off in protest of the game is never going happen. What happens is a couple of years of losing players, losing engagement, and losing money. Thr natural bounce of 7.0 will bandaid the problem, but as the article astutely points out the content needs to actually hit or people will just be over the game once MSQ is done exactly as with 6.0.

[DrWho2010]

dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


gloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Kaurhz]

Current game formula is always going to be there, to be honest. The best I can see happening is better repeatable content. But otherwise... Expect the same.

A lot of these points in the second paragraph... Ehhh... I'd say it has been about the same in terms of dungeons, and in terms of story, granted, I feel Elpis interrupted the pacing, and many of the issues I would say stem from the setup in Shadowbringers, they had always consigned themselves to the fate of wasting time with towers - Something introduced in ShB, that arguably ruined what Endwalker should have been... In this regard, I blame Shadowbringers as much as I do everything else.

ToS is there, and them later introducing systems or features relating to a third-party tool does not negate infringement of ToS, granted, in many cases I would say people that have been banned for third-party have first and foremost been banned for something else.

The article won't do anything... I'd say 7.0 has already been set in stone, inc., the optional content they'll be introducing. Projects rarely change on the whim of an article. Again, expect more of the same, except with a stronger element of replayability.

For better or worse... Some people are far too involved... Lol.

[SanibelIsland]