This frequency of English localization issues is unacceptable

[Lunaxia]

Look, I get being annoyed when they change the occasional piece of text in a story, but one thing you have to understand is that for English audiences, the Japanese text cut and dried more often than not would be very, very boring. Most of the nuance is found in their speaking style, and that is very difficult to convey to someone who doesn't have a deep familiarity with the language, and even then, it won't quite hit the way it would for a native speaker. Many of their favoured archetypes and preferred kinds of humour just flat out don't translate well to English, and can come across as juvenile, cliché or old-fashioned when enforced - see the majority of JRPGs - and others, like Haurchefant's original portrayal, just strike a bum note because we do not perceive certain behaviours in the same way. As Koji said, to deliver the same emotional experience to a foreign audience that the Japanese would have is just not possible without considerable change, because our cultural mindsets and values are innately different, even if we share things in common on the surface. Anime fans may be more accustomed to the Japanese style of storytelling and see no issue with this, but with all due respect, there is a reason most anime is not generally held in high-esteem in the West, and you'll find the few that are, are the ones make considerably more use of tropes popular in Western media than their contemporaries.

And honestly, for all that some people continue to complain about this, what they don't seem to realise is that some of the hallmark experiences of the game, such as the DRK quests or Emet-Selch's character (he's much more biting and sarcastic in the English version) have been significantly modified from the Japanese to better strike a chord with foreign players and are what they are because of that intervention. Without it, and without the obvious influences from the likes of GoT, the game would be in a very, very different place to what it is now, especially HW and ShB - two of the most popular expansions to date.

You're not missing anything in the Japanese version, I promise you.

[Telkira]

Look, I get being annoyed when they change the occasional piece of text in a story, but one thing you have to understand is that for English audiences, the Japanese text cut and dried more often than not would be very, very boring. Most of the nuance is found in their speaking style, and that is very difficult to convey to someone who doesn't have a deep familiarity with the language, and even then, it won't quite hit the way it would for a native speaker.

That's not for any one specific person to decide, and is also flat-out wrong. Plenty of subbed anime (and even dubbed content) is able to retain the nuance and charm of speaking in Japanese, but you're also overlooking the fact that the medium being used is a video game, so naturally, the Japanese textual content is going to work with the assets and thematic elements of the setting, style, engine, etc. to immerse the player.

Many of their favoured archetypes and preferred kinds of humour just flat out don't translate well to English, and can come across as juvenile, cliché or old-fashioned when enforced - see the majority of JRPGs - and others, like Haurchefant's original portrayal, just strike a bum note because we do not perceive certain behaviours in the same way. As Koji said, to deliver the same emotional experience to a foreign audience that the Japanese would have is just not possible without significant change, because our cultural mindsets and values are innately different, even if we share things in common on the surface.

Anime fans may be more accustomed to the Japanese style of storytelling and see no issue with this, but with all due respect, there is a reason most anime is not generally held in high-esteem in the West

With all due (dis)respect, those types of people who would have been offended or bothered by Haurchefant's portrayal in Japanese would be better off either just skipping it or just not bothering playing the game, or consuming any Japanese media for that matter.

What you're basically supporting is the cultural gentrification, correction, and displacement of Japanese media, the condensation and revision of 'problematic' elements because allowing the content to stand on its own merits in a foreign market would be seen as undesirable.
That becomes a sort of racism, wherein the content has to be 'corrected' because it would be seen as 'wrong', when objectively, there is nothing wrong with it, and the foreign market would be better off just having their insecurities ignored for the sake of retaining artistic and literary integrity, otherwise people wouldn't be so keen to identify and call out these egregious deviations and discrepancies which do have a negative effect on their ability to enjoy the game's content and story, especially when the changes are unnecessary or are less desirable than what was initially written.

[Lunaxia]

That's not for any one specific person to decide...

That's for the dev team to decide, actually, since it is their game to market, and given that FF has for a large part of its history been intended to reach global audiences, it's a fairly natural decision to make. If, as you said in another post, you do not wish to see "Western concepts" in a Japanese game, you have a plethora of other Japanese media never intended to leave its shores that will deliver the experience you crave.

and is also flat-out wrong. Plenty of subbed anime (and even dubbed content) is able to retain the nuance and charm of speaking in Japanese.

And you know that how, exactly, when you don't even speak the language?

With all due (dis)respect

Oho, very mature of you.

those types of people who would have been offended or bothered by Haurchefant's portrayal in Japanese would be better off either just skipping it or just not bothering playing the game, or consuming any Japanese media for that matter.

But the devs don't actually want that, so we didn't get Sexual Harassment Lite and instead received a version much more in keeping with what the players they actually want to consume the game would be more comfortable with.

That becomes a sort of racism, wherein the content has to be 'corrected' because it would be seen as 'wrong'

Not wrong, it just wouldn't sell, and that's their ultimate objective, at the end of the day. It benefits them to cater to different cultural sensibilities, so that's why they have decided to employ a team of people and pay them a wage to do so.

If you don't like it, feel free to go pull up a list of Papyrus-font subbed anime with foot-long translation notes every other sentences and enjoy the stilted, hammy dialogue and awkward phrasing so you can bask in your perceived sense of textual "purity."

[Telkira]

That's for the dev team to decide, actually, since it is their game to market, and given that FF has for a large part of its history been intended to reach global audiences, it's a fairly natural decision to make.

No, it's not for the devs to decide whether or not people would be entertained by something or would find it boring. That would be for the for the audience themselves to decide. By omitting or implementing changes/deviations from the source material, they are effectively robbing the end user of their ability to determine that for themselves.
I personally think the changes made by the LOC team are unnecessary and take too many liberties, many of which actually don't fit with what's happening in the setting or situation. It's insulting, quite frankly, both as a fan of the content and as a consumer of JP media.

The game can still exist comfortably as a global export product and still remain true to its source material. It will still sell and have the same mass-market appeal it always had, with the added bonus of being a 1:1 faithful vision.

But the devs don't actually want that, so we didn't get Sexual Harassment Lite and instead received a version much more in keeping with what the players they actually want to consume the game would be more comfortable with.

If they didn't want it, then they wouldn't have included it in the JP script and the LOC team didn't have to go over their heads to implement these changes.
And 'Sexual harassment lite'?? Oh come on, it's literally just a comedy routine in a video game. If you seriously would have been bothered by that to such an overdramatic degree then you literally shouldn't be playing video games. It's one thing to find it tasteless or not funny, it's another to label it like it's some sort of violation. It's not. It's a character in a video game. People would have accepted Haurchefant and gotten over it.

People would have found it entertaining/funny and those who are uncomfortable by it would have their opinions. It's accommodating their insecurities at the expense of a valid (and arguably more entertaining and comical character) while creating a massive discrepancy which the devs apologized for doing. If Japanese audiences can be entertained by him, so can Western ones. It is a JP product, first and foremost.

[Telkira]

And you know that how, exactly, when you don't even speak the language?

I've read translation/localizer notes, and have watched enough content to familiarize myself with the intentions of the writers. It's a basic part of growing media literacy, which is why I always recommend subtitled content over dubbed content, because you learn more as you watch and it invites understanding.

Not wrong, it just wouldn't sell, and that's their ultimate objective, at the end of the day.

It would sell just like it always has. The fact that the French and German localizations are more in-line with the JP source material than the EN scripts and those are enjoyed just fine.

If you don't like it, feel free to go pull up a list of Papyrus-font subbed anime with foot-long translation notes every other sentences and enjoy the stilted, hammy dialogue and awkward phrasing so you can bask in your perceived sense of textual "purity."

You have no idea how much I enjoy that. If the game kept all the references to JP pop culture, it would be an opportunity for foreign players to learn a little bit about JP culture in addition to playing a video game. Players would ask "what did they mean by this?" and they would be told by others, either via word-of-mouth or from going a search online.

[Lunaxia]

No, it's not for the devs to decide whether or not people would be entertained by something or would find it boring. That would be for the for the audience themselves to decide. By omitting or implementing changes/deviations from the source material, they are effectively robbing the end user of their ability to determine that for themselves.

...yeah, I'm still going to go with the gaming company with twenty plus years of experience making games and exporting them abroad possessing better judgement when it comes to that decision over one guy on the internet. If they are willing to set up and fund entire teams whose job it is to convey the story in a way that is most effective and suited for their target audience, I assure you it's not simply to hurt your feelings.

And for the record, the FR/ GER texts align with both the English and Japanese and do their own thing on different occasions, they don't strictly follow one translation to copy.

The game can still exist comfortably as a global export product and still remain true to its source material. It will still sell and have the same mass-market appeal it always had, with the added bonus of being a 1:1 faithful vision.

Source: just trust me on this.

If they didn't want it, then they wouldn't have included it in the JP script and the LOC team didn't have to go over their heads to implement these changes.
And 'Sexual harassment lite'?? Oh come on, it's literally just a comedy routine in a video game.

They would have put it in because "creepy but harmless obsessive pervert making the main character(s) uncomfortable" is unfortunately a common feature in certain forms of Japanese media, but it continues to age like milk when it comes to Western audiences because of the increasing intolerance of that sort of behaviour on our side. And looking back, it was a very clever decision for them to make given how much stronger those stances have become in recent years off the back of various movements, and it would have made the game look grossly archaic when FF has always tried to venture on the side of being more modern and connected to its international audience and having a wide appeal.

It is a JP product, first and foremost.

It's a JP product they want foreigners to consume, and I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time understanding that. You and other similarly fanatical worshippers of the sacred Japanese text that the translation actually adheres to more often than it doesn't are not their target demographic, as painful as that might be to hear.

And lol if you think translation notes are genuinely a viable substitute for knowing what the Japanese text actually says. I recommend pursuing learning the language if you value what they have to say that highly, you might actually come to realise why this is a pointless discussion in the first place.

[Telkira]

...yeah, I'm still going to go with the gaming company with twenty plus years of experience making games and exporting them abroad possessing better judgement when it comes to that decision over one guy on the internet. If they are willing to set up and fund entire teams whose job it is to convey the story in a way that is most effective and suited for their target audience, I assure you it's not simply to hurt your feelings.

This is a cop-out answer or response. SE's broader business interests are far beyond anything I'm qualified to comment on, but when it comes to doing something that a substantial portion of the fanbase is very clearly not happy with and are willing to call out and criticize, then that's something I'm able to do.

There are plenty of instances where a faithful translation of the game's content would have been sufficient, and the broader playerbase would have been none the wiser.

Source: just trust me on this.

Cop out response. The mere fact that this thread and others like it exist is proof positive of my criticisms, in addition to the admission of fault by the LOC team in how they handled Haurchefant, even acknowledging that they deprived the fanbase of experiencing a compelling and entertaining character.

They would have put it in because "creepy but harmless obsessive pervert making the main character(s) uncomfortable" is unfortunately a common feature in certain forms of Japanese media, but it continues to age like milk when it comes to Western audiences because of the increasing intolerance of that sort of behaviour on our side.

It's a comedic archetype that has existed and will continue to exist throughout all of Japanese media, and exists in multiple forms throughout Western media. It will continue to exist so long as the carefree debauchee continues to be funny, and it will continue to be amusing to people. The mere fact that people like you are seriously arguing in favor of suppressing this shows that you either have very little in the way of media literacy or can't separate fiction from reality, or you simply can't take a joke. Catering to and accommodating your insecurities are exactly what companies like SE should be avoiding because suppressing it ultimately does not and will not serve to influence anything real or consequential.

And looking back, it was a very clever decision for them to make given how much stronger those stances have become in recent years off the back of various movements, and it would have made the game look grossly archaic when FF has always tried to venture on the side of being more modern and connected to its international audience and having a wide appeal.

These 'various movements' have no place policing the contents of fictional video game worlds. They're no different than PETA making parody Pokemon games that compare the franchise with real-life animal bloodsport, or the Red Cross trying to get video games to follow the Geneva Convention protocols. They only serve to discredit and annoy, rather than actually influence positive changes that address real-world harms.

[Lunaxia]

This is a cop-out answer or response. SE's broader business interests are far beyond anything I'm qualified to comment on

Then perhaps don't comment when you don't actually know anything about it. "Substantial", lol.

It's a comedic archetype that has existed

Sexual harassment isn't funny, and it was never really was funny to anyone else to begin with except for ardent anime fans who place Japanese culture on a pedestal, and no translation is ever lacking for its omission. It's an unfortunate fact of reality and making light of it only benefits its perpetrators by purporting disturbing and unwanted behaviour as harmless. It's thankfully become an awkward and outdated mode of comedy that is now on the outs in the West, and hopefully in time it will on the JP side too. I suggest accepting that and moving on.

These 'various movements' have no place policing the contents of fictional video game worlds. They're no different than PETA making parody Pokemon games that compare the franchise with real-life animal bloodsport, or the Red Cross trying to get video games to follow the Geneva Convention protocols. They only serve to discredit and annoy, rather than actually influence positive changes that address real-world harms.

It's not "movements policing content in video games", it's a general shift in cultural and societal values brought on by these movements that will of course have lasting effects on popular media. SE understands this, they want their games to sell, and so they choose to adhere to that in lieu of potentially sinking an entire game over stale and offensive jokes to please an imaginary minority who think they're being deprived of quality content by not reading about a character drooling over "bulging muscles" and "glistening bodies." Consumers want a game that is well-written, entertaining and aligns with their values, gaming companies want to sell games and make money. Everyone wins.

then people like you probably wouldn't be here

You're right! Because this entire argument would never exist in the first place if people like you bothered to pick up a textbook and actually see what they're not missing, and might even begin to appreciate the amount of time and effort that goes into delivering the work the localisation team does.

Again, if you don't like it, learn it. It's not that hard, and you can revel in the original text to your heart's content without a translator's filthy English words contaminating it.

[Telkira]

It's a JP product they want foreigners to consume, and I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time understanding that. You and other similarly fanatical worshippers of the sacred Japanese text that the translation actually adheres to more often than it doesn't are not their target demographic, as painful as that might be to hear.

And lol if you think translation notes are genuinely a viable substitute for knowing what the Japanese text actually says. I recommend pursuing learning the language if you value what they have to say that highly, you might actually come to realise why this is a pointless discussion in the first place.

If picking up and learning a whole language that has 3 separate alphabets with heaps of complexity and nuance were as easy and simple, or if it were something more people were able to just take up and complete, then people like you probably wouldn't be here to defend a company's right to pander to you at the expense of producing a better product.

[OgruMogru]

If picking up and learning a whole language that has 3 separate alphabets with heaps of complexity and nuance were as easy and simple, or if it were something more people were able to just take up and complete, then people like you probably wouldn't be here to defend a company's right to pander to you at the expense of producing a better product.

Pot. Kettle. Black