SE: Please enable echo way earlier on savage tier...

[Jeeqbit]

This is literally a running joke at this point that there is no echo going for savage. If they are abandoning echo as a way to ease difficulty then they need to figure out what to do when they make a tier too difficult.

You will literally get "Epic Echo" in the next expansion, regardless. Item level will increase. It will be alright.

People who are struggling on Anabesios p12s p1 and p2 are not lacking in skill right now

...yes, they are. If someone needs The Echo because it's too hard, that is literally because of a lack of skill, unless they have some sort of disability.

Telling people that there was a screw up in difficulty is great: but taking no action to resolve the problem is saying the complete opposite.

They have not said there was a screw up in difficulty, though. They test the content before they release it and Yoshi-P does personal checks of it and if he doesn't like it, he asks them to change it or redo it.

I don't even know if echo would fix the problems completely, but at least it would increase the number of times groups can consistently get to p2.

Echo should not be there until the next tier at the earliest and fortunately, that is how it seems to be.

[Caro178]

You will literally get "Epic Echo" in the next expansion, regardless. Item level will increase. It will be alright.

Right? This thread is just wildly missing the mark from the "it's not a skill issue, the fight is just too hard" justification to the overall complaint about not having echo yet when the whole raid tier will have the echo buff sometime post holiday season and will remain in that state until Dawntrail where will receive an even bigger echo buff. P12S is going to have echo for half a year and somehow that's still not long enough?

Only one fight this expansion was ever commented on fairly as being too hard, and it wasn't because of mechanics. P8S had an overtuned dps check which was rectified very quickly. P12S's dps check is the most lenient of any final floor I've done, probably as a safety net after what happened with Abyssos.

[Colt47]

You will literally get "Epic Echo" in the next expansion, regardless. Item level will increase. It will be alright.

...yes, they are. If someone needs The Echo because it's too hard, that is literally because of a lack of skill, unless they have some sort of disability.

They have not said there was a screw up in difficulty, though. They test the content before they release it and Yoshi-P does personal checks of it and if he doesn't like it, he asks them to change it or redo it.

Echo should not be there until the next tier at the earliest and fortunately, that is how it seems to be.

Waiting until next expansion is pointless when people are trying to do the content now. It's not about who is better or not at this point, people are smacking themselves against a wall way too long on content that has been around for several months. People who wanted this stuff done for the merit of saying they did the hard content already cleared it on month 4 back in Mid September. I was a big supporter of the idea that we can wait for content to cycle out and then do it when it is no longer current, but that is not the same thing as having your current content scale so that people complete the content in a reasonable time. 10% echo wont help against body checks but it will make it so people can more consistently get to where they need to in order to progress.

As for why "this is not a skill issue", for one: I'm saying that because saying it is "a skill issue" implies that the one writing that knows what is going on in the other persons life. It's also implying that people who have not cleared the content yet are somehow inferior in their capabilities of learning over those who did, without considering how much time they have to study, what hours they are engaging in the content in, and how often they can afford to meet up. Someone who is doing this during the late hours of the day and only has an hour at best to study before going to a savage is going to take longer than someone going in from the morning and taking multiple days off from work to complete it. IMO if players are still dying to p12s on month 7 when on almost all other tiers prior to this, people generally were able to clear month 6 or sooner, there's kind of a problem.

Likewise, I've ran into a disagreement on what skill means in terms of these conversations a lot. If the definition of skill is someone doing the fight well, most of the people are doing the parts of the fight they have learned fine, the reason they are getting blocked is the fact that a single person in the group so much as messing up can chain kill the party. With 8 people that means anyone who makes a mistake even if they are just tired is going to result in the entire group being held back. If a person can execute all mechanics correctly 7/8 times in p12s p1, how is that not skilled? if you got 8 people in a group and each of them has that success to failure rate, the entire group could easily not clear p12s p1 on a night to get to phase 2. That and confusion over where someone should be standing because people were positioned differently on the prior night also factors into this. Is it a skill issue if someone who has been group 1 melee has to get shifted to group 2 for melee on a fight and the group wipes because of it? Probably not, that is more of an organization issue.

To put it simply: A skill is something that is applied to multiple areas. Learning a savage fight is reading a picture book and remembering every single picture in it, to the point you can flip instantly to the right page when needed. Nothing carries over to anything else outside of that one thing since each savage fight is its own book. Hence, someone can learn a savage fight, but they aren't suddenly becoming "more skilled" at savage in general. Even DPS in these fights are linked to the learning of the fight and not to someone's skill at playing the game in a broad sense.

[Jeeqbit]

Waiting until next expansion is pointless when people are trying to do the content now.

They are trying to do it in a legitimate way now. Unsyncing and echo is for people who want to cheese it and ignore mechanics because they aren't raiders and they will get that when the tier is over as item level caps increase.

It's not about who is better or not at this point, people are smacking themselves against a wall way too long on content that has been around for several months.

Lots of people are just beginning the content, all the time. New players reach max level and start it, or return to the game after a long time and start it.

As for why "this is not a skill issue", for one: I'm saying that because saying it is "a skill issue" implies that the one writing that knows what is going on in the other persons life. It's also implying that people who have not cleared the content yet are somehow inferior in their capabilities of learning over those who did, without considering how much time they have to study, what hours they are engaging in the content in, and how often they can afford to meet up. Someone who is doing this during the late hours of the day and only has an hour at best to study before going to a savage is going to take longer than someone going in from the morning and taking multiple days off from work to complete it. IMO if players are still dying to p12s on month 7 when on almost all other tiers prior to this, people generally were able to clear month 6 or sooner, there's kind of a problem.

I mean, whether you want to say it's about skill or not, the point is that many other people have managed to clear it without the Echo and therefore the people who have yet to do so can as well, again, unless there is some sort of disability preventing them being able to. If nobody was able to clear it, then nerfs or buffs would make sense, but we haven't seen those sort of complaints like we did with P8S.

the reason they are getting blocked is the fact that a single person in the group so much as messing up can chain kill the party.

Welcome to high-end content. That has been a frustration with high-end content since the game began. Literally even in Heavensward, that was frustrating, that you had 7 people doing it perfectly but that 1 person ruined the run and left you wiping for hours to mechanics you can do flawlessly. We've probably all run into it many times doing this content, but it doesn't change the fact that someone in the content is not "skilled" enough yet at it, or however you want to put it.

A frustration we have had since the beginning of the game should not suddenly be "solved" with nerfs and Echo buffs to current tier content.

[Colt47]

Heavensward was definitely worse than what we are dealing with right now. Right now the systems they have to deal with competency in a fight are busted because normally, the gear people get eases the burden on mechanics and makes it possible to clear a fight even if someone has a combination of damage down punishments or deaths. Lions prog was bad in PF back in e12s but it is not as bad as p12s p1. And for all the tightening they have done with the stat squish to increase the amount of control they have it feels like the developers have even fewer controls now to deal with this than they did prior.

Also, it is true that chain deaths are a thing in savage and have been from the start. The issue is the number of points that it can happen even with the gear increase. We don't have broken levels of defense or HP anymore like we did back before the stat squish, so all their tools they relied on to handle easing the gates towards the next major patch or expansion are failing.

[Caro178]

Right now the systems they have to deal with competency in a fight are busted because normally, the gear people get eases the burden on mechanics and makes it possible to clear a fight even if someone has a combination of damage down punishments or deaths.

I did P12S week 1 when we were min ilevel for the fight. I can assure you the difference in stats between 640 pentamelded crafted gear and and 660 full bis is massive. If you didn't have nearly every mit up during limit cut week 1 healers and dps would just die to the last dash from full health. iLevel increase means we are dealing thousands more dps each and you can entirely skip the last mechanic and a half of the fight if you push hard enough. You can even tank solo superchain stacks that would have obliterated week 1.

The fact that you are getting skill checked so hard by P12S P1 of all fights is pretty funny, I'll give you that. Half the casual statics I knew in Abyssos blew up on P8S P1. I don't know a single static that blew up because of P12S, either phase. It's been widely accessible to clear in party finder from the beginning because the dps check is so incredibly lenient.

[Colt47]

I did P12S week 1 when we were min ilevel for the fight. I can assure you the difference in stats between 640 pentamelded crafted gear and and 660 full bis is massive. If you didn't have nearly every mit up during limit cut week 1 healers and dps would just die to the last dash from full health. iLevel increase means we are dealing thousands more dps each and you can entirely skip the last mechanic and a half of the fight if you push hard enough. You can even tank solo superchain stacks that would have obliterated week 1.

The fact that you are getting skill checked so hard by P12S P1 of all fights is pretty funny, I'll give you that. Half the casual statics I knew in Abyssos blew up on P8S P1. I don't know a single static that blew up because of P12S, either phase. It's been widely accessible to clear in party finder from the beginning because the dps check is so incredibly lenient.

Oh yeah the difference always is. It was the same back in Shadowbringers and during the last tier of that expansion it was crazy levels of difference. Also, again it isn't really skill checking it's a competency check as there is a difference when talking about the two. There seems to be a misunderstanding or people are just wandering in and getting the wrong idea. I'm on phase 2 on the fight and yes, there are points where I mess up on the first phase, but when someone is running that phase 10+ times in a night that is going to happen at least once or twice. Keep in mind the people running this now are worn down and basically struggling to get through because of how long they've been at it. And FYI you mention doing it week 1 and honestly, it is easier to clear a tier quickly than doing it the long way, so I'm not surprised you say that. Think of it this way: You're with 7 other people who took a week off from work to actually run the fight and learn it that week. It is a huge game changer when dealing with that over a group that is basically tired out from work and running at 7pm to 10pm or later. It takes a while because it's one night of just seeing it, then another night to just go watch a video and start figuring it out because your working all day, and then the next day maybe making progress depending on the fight and the tier. Thankfully the first and second fights can generally be finished in one or two weeks each under that kind of schedule, though it gets to be tight depending on how many days in a week someone is going. 5 days grinding at 3 hours a day generally gets through the first fight. Second fight can be hit or miss.

So let me break this down and completely forget anything about difficulty, lets look at this in terms of time needed.

My friend ran and completed this in one week this tier but he went something like 12 hours a day and had to go two extra days beyond that to finish. Total hours needed to clear the entire tier was around 108 hours for him and they barely pulled it off.

Talking to some other folks who completed the content within the first two or three weeks, it was around 120-137 hours.

A group doing 3 hours a day would need around 43 or more days to finish, which if divided up would be 14 weeks, or three and a half months. However, most groups doing 3 hours a day for 3 days a week do not complete in that time. They often complete at 5 and sometimes 6 months later. Keep in mind that is with the gear they are getting from reclearing on subsequent weeks.

This is why there has to be systems in place to make sure people aren't running themselves into the ground doing this because it is very easy to run into the 200+ hour range just to complete a reward that the designers are trying to aim for 120-137 hours of completion time for. Other content like PVP and the like doesn't have this variance because it is a steady activity someone just does day by day, often giving a reward even for failure.

[PyaKura]

Oh yeah the difference always is. It was the same back in Shadowbringers and during the last tier of that expansion it was crazy levels of difference. Also, again it isn't really skill checking it's a competency check as there is a difference when talking about the two. There seems to be a misunderstanding or people are just wandering in and getting the wrong idea. I'm on phase 2 on the fight and yes, there are points where I mess up on the first phase, but when someone is running that phase 10+ times in a night that is going to happen at least once or twice.Keep in mind the people running this now are worn down and basically struggling to get through because of how long they've been at it. And FYI you mention doing it week 1 and honestly, it is easier to clear a tier quickly than doing it the long way, so I'm not surprised you say that. Think of it this way: You're with 7 other people who took a week off from work to actually run the fight and learn it that week. It is a huge game changer when dealing with that over a group that is basically tired out from work and running at 7pm to 10pm or later. It takes a while because it's one night of just seeing it, then another night to just go watch a video and start figuring it out because your working all day, and then the next day maybe making progress depending on the fight and the tier. Thankfully the first and second fights can generally be finished in one or two weeks each under that kind of schedule, though it gets to be tight depending on how many days in a week someone is going. 5 days grinding at 3 hours a day generally gets through the first fight. Second fight can be hit or miss.

So let me break this down and completely forget anything about difficulty, lets look at this in terms of time needed.

My friend ran and completed this in one week this tier but he went something like 12 hours a day and had to go two extra days beyond that to finish. Total hours needed to clear the entire tier was around 108 hours for him and they barely pulled it off.

Talking to some other folks who completed the content within the first two or three weeks, it was around 120-137 hours.

A group doing 3 hours a day would need around 43 or more days to finish, which if divided up would be 14 weeks, or three and a half months. However, most groups doing 3 hours a day for 3 days a week do not complete in that time. They often complete at 5 and sometimes 6 months later. Keep in mind that is with the gear they are getting from reclearing on subsequent weeks.

This is why there has to be systems in place to make sure people aren't running themselves into the ground doing this because it is very easy to run into the 200+ hour range just to complete a reward that the designers are trying to aim for 120-137 hours of completion time for. Other content like PVP and the like doesn't have this variance because it is a steady activity someone just does day by day, often giving a reward even for failure.

What are you talking about? I usually change groups every tier so I haven't been in what I'd call a super close-knit group. Just similar-minded players. I do consider myself good but not anywhere near the best of players, and I join groups which have the same objectives as I do. This is what my group's progression this tier looked like, which seems in line with what most week 1 groups do assuming they're not going hardcore. We ended up clearing on Monday, the night before weekly reset. I think you vastly overestimate how many week 1 groups take time off of work to play a video game.



(Right click, open image in new tab for better quality)

Edit:

My Abyssos and Asphodelos below, each with different week 1 groups too.

[Menriq]

So let me break this down and completely forget anything about difficulty, lets look at this in terms of time needed.

My friend ran and completed this in one week this tier but he went something like 12 hours a day and had to go two extra days beyond that to finish. Total hours needed to clear the entire tier was around 108 hours for him and they barely pulled it off.

Talking to some other folks who completed the content within the first two or three weeks, it was around 120-137 hours.

This doesn't add up. A week (7 days) + 2 days = 9 days. 9 * 12 would get you to 108, but that is not one week. But still, going that time is still much harder than most people go. I'll continue this point below.

A group doing 3 hours a day would need around 43 or more days to finish, which if divided up would be 14 weeks, or three and a half months. However, most groups doing 3 hours a day for 3 days a week do not complete in that time. They often complete at 5 and sometimes 6 months later. Keep in mind that is with the gear they are getting from reclearing on subsequent weeks.

This is why there has to be systems in place to make sure people aren't running themselves into the ground doing this because it is very easy to run into the 200+ hour range just to complete a reward that the designers are trying to aim for 120-137 hours of completion time for. Other content like PVP and the like doesn't have this variance because it is a steady activity someone just does day by day, often giving a reward even for failure.

Continuing the point. You can't compare the two, because in order for that to work, the skill level would have to be equal. It is not a big leap to assume that those who are going 12+ hours a day are generally going to be more skilled on average than those who are going 3 hours a day 3 days week. Not only that, but given that most week 1 groups are clearing in crafted, they are actually at a disadvantage. If you really wanted to compare, you'd have to have the group taking longer not get any kind of upgrades and then see how long it takes them. The bottom line is if people are clearing week 1, and there new groups clearing every day, then the answer is not a gear issue. You can look at my logs and see I'm far from a 1% player, so I'm not out here saying it's braindead easy, because difficulty is going to be subjective. What I will say is that I can almost guarantee if you were to look at the wipes, I would bet 99% of the mistakes are not gear related, but rather an issue with mechanics. This is normal for high end content, and I personally don't see any reason to change it.

[TheRealQuah]

Also, again it isn't really skill checking it's a competency check as there is a difference when talking about the two. There seems to be a misunderstanding or people are just wandering in and getting the wrong idea. And FYI you mention doing it week 1 and honestly, it is easier to clear a tier quickly than doing it the long way, so I'm not surprised you say that. Think of it this way: You're with 7 other people who took a week off from work to actually run the fight and learn it that week. It is a huge game changer when dealing with that over a group that is basically tired out from work and running at 7pm to 10pm or later. It takes a while because it's one night of just seeing it, then another night to just go watch a video and start figuring it out because your working all day, and then the next day maybe making progress depending on the fight and the tier. Thankfully the first and second fights can generally be finished in one or two weeks each under that kind of schedule, though it gets to be tight depending on how many days in a week someone is going. 5 days grinding at 3 hours a day generally gets through the first fight. Second fight can be hit or miss.

So let me break this down and completely forget anything about difficulty, lets look at this in terms of time needed.

My friend ran and completed this in one week this tier but he went something like 12 hours a day and had to go two extra days beyond that to finish. Total hours needed to clear the entire tier was around 108 hours for him and they barely pulled it off.

Talking to some other folks who completed the content within the first two or three weeks, it was around 120-137 hours.

A group doing 3 hours a day would need around 43 or more days to finish, which if divided up would be 14 weeks, or three and a half months. However, most groups doing 3 hours a day for 3 days a week do not complete in that time. They often complete at 5 and sometimes 6 months later. Keep in mind that is with the gear they are getting from reclearing on subsequent weeks.

This whole post with the "timings" is just screaming major skill issue. My group did 7-10pm on average 2 days a week and we cleared the tier week 10. If you are clearing at "5 and sometimes 6 months later", it's a skill issue and Echo isn't going to solve it.

Echo will help with DPS checks in P12S, but there basically isn't one. You can skip the whole final mechanic already with average DPS. Echo is not going to help you clear mechanics.

The 7/8 people doing it correctly every time argument has no merit. If you are not replacing the 1 person who keeps wiping you every pull then that is a you problem, echo is not going to help.

P12S is one of the easiest final fights of any tier, stop trying to get the game dumbed down and made easier.

"It's easier to clear week 1" - how out of touch are you?