SE: Please enable echo way earlier on savage tier...

[Caro178]

Right now the systems they have to deal with competency in a fight are busted because normally, the gear people get eases the burden on mechanics and makes it possible to clear a fight even if someone has a combination of damage down punishments or deaths.

I did P12S week 1 when we were min ilevel for the fight. I can assure you the difference in stats between 640 pentamelded crafted gear and and 660 full bis is massive. If you didn't have nearly every mit up during limit cut week 1 healers and dps would just die to the last dash from full health. iLevel increase means we are dealing thousands more dps each and you can entirely skip the last mechanic and a half of the fight if you push hard enough. You can even tank solo superchain stacks that would have obliterated week 1.

The fact that you are getting skill checked so hard by P12S P1 of all fights is pretty funny, I'll give you that. Half the casual statics I knew in Abyssos blew up on P8S P1. I don't know a single static that blew up because of P12S, either phase. It's been widely accessible to clear in party finder from the beginning because the dps check is so incredibly lenient.

[Colt47]

I did P12S week 1 when we were min ilevel for the fight. I can assure you the difference in stats between 640 pentamelded crafted gear and and 660 full bis is massive. If you didn't have nearly every mit up during limit cut week 1 healers and dps would just die to the last dash from full health. iLevel increase means we are dealing thousands more dps each and you can entirely skip the last mechanic and a half of the fight if you push hard enough. You can even tank solo superchain stacks that would have obliterated week 1.

The fact that you are getting skill checked so hard by P12S P1 of all fights is pretty funny, I'll give you that. Half the casual statics I knew in Abyssos blew up on P8S P1. I don't know a single static that blew up because of P12S, either phase. It's been widely accessible to clear in party finder from the beginning because the dps check is so incredibly lenient.

Oh yeah the difference always is. It was the same back in Shadowbringers and during the last tier of that expansion it was crazy levels of difference. Also, again it isn't really skill checking it's a competency check as there is a difference when talking about the two. There seems to be a misunderstanding or people are just wandering in and getting the wrong idea. I'm on phase 2 on the fight and yes, there are points where I mess up on the first phase, but when someone is running that phase 10+ times in a night that is going to happen at least once or twice. Keep in mind the people running this now are worn down and basically struggling to get through because of how long they've been at it. And FYI you mention doing it week 1 and honestly, it is easier to clear a tier quickly than doing it the long way, so I'm not surprised you say that. Think of it this way: You're with 7 other people who took a week off from work to actually run the fight and learn it that week. It is a huge game changer when dealing with that over a group that is basically tired out from work and running at 7pm to 10pm or later. It takes a while because it's one night of just seeing it, then another night to just go watch a video and start figuring it out because your working all day, and then the next day maybe making progress depending on the fight and the tier. Thankfully the first and second fights can generally be finished in one or two weeks each under that kind of schedule, though it gets to be tight depending on how many days in a week someone is going. 5 days grinding at 3 hours a day generally gets through the first fight. Second fight can be hit or miss.

So let me break this down and completely forget anything about difficulty, lets look at this in terms of time needed.

My friend ran and completed this in one week this tier but he went something like 12 hours a day and had to go two extra days beyond that to finish. Total hours needed to clear the entire tier was around 108 hours for him and they barely pulled it off.

Talking to some other folks who completed the content within the first two or three weeks, it was around 120-137 hours.

A group doing 3 hours a day would need around 43 or more days to finish, which if divided up would be 14 weeks, or three and a half months. However, most groups doing 3 hours a day for 3 days a week do not complete in that time. They often complete at 5 and sometimes 6 months later. Keep in mind that is with the gear they are getting from reclearing on subsequent weeks.

This is why there has to be systems in place to make sure people aren't running themselves into the ground doing this because it is very easy to run into the 200+ hour range just to complete a reward that the designers are trying to aim for 120-137 hours of completion time for. Other content like PVP and the like doesn't have this variance because it is a steady activity someone just does day by day, often giving a reward even for failure.

[PyaKura]

Oh yeah the difference always is. It was the same back in Shadowbringers and during the last tier of that expansion it was crazy levels of difference. Also, again it isn't really skill checking it's a competency check as there is a difference when talking about the two. There seems to be a misunderstanding or people are just wandering in and getting the wrong idea. I'm on phase 2 on the fight and yes, there are points where I mess up on the first phase, but when someone is running that phase 10+ times in a night that is going to happen at least once or twice.Keep in mind the people running this now are worn down and basically struggling to get through because of how long they've been at it. And FYI you mention doing it week 1 and honestly, it is easier to clear a tier quickly than doing it the long way, so I'm not surprised you say that. Think of it this way: You're with 7 other people who took a week off from work to actually run the fight and learn it that week. It is a huge game changer when dealing with that over a group that is basically tired out from work and running at 7pm to 10pm or later. It takes a while because it's one night of just seeing it, then another night to just go watch a video and start figuring it out because your working all day, and then the next day maybe making progress depending on the fight and the tier. Thankfully the first and second fights can generally be finished in one or two weeks each under that kind of schedule, though it gets to be tight depending on how many days in a week someone is going. 5 days grinding at 3 hours a day generally gets through the first fight. Second fight can be hit or miss.

So let me break this down and completely forget anything about difficulty, lets look at this in terms of time needed.

My friend ran and completed this in one week this tier but he went something like 12 hours a day and had to go two extra days beyond that to finish. Total hours needed to clear the entire tier was around 108 hours for him and they barely pulled it off.

Talking to some other folks who completed the content within the first two or three weeks, it was around 120-137 hours.

A group doing 3 hours a day would need around 43 or more days to finish, which if divided up would be 14 weeks, or three and a half months. However, most groups doing 3 hours a day for 3 days a week do not complete in that time. They often complete at 5 and sometimes 6 months later. Keep in mind that is with the gear they are getting from reclearing on subsequent weeks.

This is why there has to be systems in place to make sure people aren't running themselves into the ground doing this because it is very easy to run into the 200+ hour range just to complete a reward that the designers are trying to aim for 120-137 hours of completion time for. Other content like PVP and the like doesn't have this variance because it is a steady activity someone just does day by day, often giving a reward even for failure.

What are you talking about? I usually change groups every tier so I haven't been in what I'd call a super close-knit group. Just similar-minded players. I do consider myself good but not anywhere near the best of players, and I join groups which have the same objectives as I do. This is what my group's progression this tier looked like, which seems in line with what most week 1 groups do assuming they're not going hardcore. We ended up clearing on Monday, the night before weekly reset. I think you vastly overestimate how many week 1 groups take time off of work to play a video game.



(Right click, open image in new tab for better quality)

Edit:

My Abyssos and Asphodelos below, each with different week 1 groups too.

[Menriq]

So let me break this down and completely forget anything about difficulty, lets look at this in terms of time needed.

My friend ran and completed this in one week this tier but he went something like 12 hours a day and had to go two extra days beyond that to finish. Total hours needed to clear the entire tier was around 108 hours for him and they barely pulled it off.

Talking to some other folks who completed the content within the first two or three weeks, it was around 120-137 hours.

This doesn't add up. A week (7 days) + 2 days = 9 days. 9 * 12 would get you to 108, but that is not one week. But still, going that time is still much harder than most people go. I'll continue this point below.

A group doing 3 hours a day would need around 43 or more days to finish, which if divided up would be 14 weeks, or three and a half months. However, most groups doing 3 hours a day for 3 days a week do not complete in that time. They often complete at 5 and sometimes 6 months later. Keep in mind that is with the gear they are getting from reclearing on subsequent weeks.

This is why there has to be systems in place to make sure people aren't running themselves into the ground doing this because it is very easy to run into the 200+ hour range just to complete a reward that the designers are trying to aim for 120-137 hours of completion time for. Other content like PVP and the like doesn't have this variance because it is a steady activity someone just does day by day, often giving a reward even for failure.

Continuing the point. You can't compare the two, because in order for that to work, the skill level would have to be equal. It is not a big leap to assume that those who are going 12+ hours a day are generally going to be more skilled on average than those who are going 3 hours a day 3 days week. Not only that, but given that most week 1 groups are clearing in crafted, they are actually at a disadvantage. If you really wanted to compare, you'd have to have the group taking longer not get any kind of upgrades and then see how long it takes them. The bottom line is if people are clearing week 1, and there new groups clearing every day, then the answer is not a gear issue. You can look at my logs and see I'm far from a 1% player, so I'm not out here saying it's braindead easy, because difficulty is going to be subjective. What I will say is that I can almost guarantee if you were to look at the wipes, I would bet 99% of the mistakes are not gear related, but rather an issue with mechanics. This is normal for high end content, and I personally don't see any reason to change it.

[TheRealQuah]

Also, again it isn't really skill checking it's a competency check as there is a difference when talking about the two. There seems to be a misunderstanding or people are just wandering in and getting the wrong idea. And FYI you mention doing it week 1 and honestly, it is easier to clear a tier quickly than doing it the long way, so I'm not surprised you say that. Think of it this way: You're with 7 other people who took a week off from work to actually run the fight and learn it that week. It is a huge game changer when dealing with that over a group that is basically tired out from work and running at 7pm to 10pm or later. It takes a while because it's one night of just seeing it, then another night to just go watch a video and start figuring it out because your working all day, and then the next day maybe making progress depending on the fight and the tier. Thankfully the first and second fights can generally be finished in one or two weeks each under that kind of schedule, though it gets to be tight depending on how many days in a week someone is going. 5 days grinding at 3 hours a day generally gets through the first fight. Second fight can be hit or miss.

So let me break this down and completely forget anything about difficulty, lets look at this in terms of time needed.

My friend ran and completed this in one week this tier but he went something like 12 hours a day and had to go two extra days beyond that to finish. Total hours needed to clear the entire tier was around 108 hours for him and they barely pulled it off.

Talking to some other folks who completed the content within the first two or three weeks, it was around 120-137 hours.

A group doing 3 hours a day would need around 43 or more days to finish, which if divided up would be 14 weeks, or three and a half months. However, most groups doing 3 hours a day for 3 days a week do not complete in that time. They often complete at 5 and sometimes 6 months later. Keep in mind that is with the gear they are getting from reclearing on subsequent weeks.

This whole post with the "timings" is just screaming major skill issue. My group did 7-10pm on average 2 days a week and we cleared the tier week 10. If you are clearing at "5 and sometimes 6 months later", it's a skill issue and Echo isn't going to solve it.

Echo will help with DPS checks in P12S, but there basically isn't one. You can skip the whole final mechanic already with average DPS. Echo is not going to help you clear mechanics.

The 7/8 people doing it correctly every time argument has no merit. If you are not replacing the 1 person who keeps wiping you every pull then that is a you problem, echo is not going to help.

P12S is one of the easiest final fights of any tier, stop trying to get the game dumbed down and made easier.

"It's easier to clear week 1" - how out of touch are you?

[Caro178]

The 7/8 people doing it correctly every time argument has no merit. If you are not replacing the 1 person who keeps wiping you every pull then that is a you problem, echo is not going to help.

They can't kick the 1/8 wiping the party every pull because it's them.

[Xaphire]

Balmung moment

[Ravenblade1979]

This is literally a running joke at this point that there is no echo going for savage. If they are abandoning echo as a way to ease difficulty then they need to figure out what to do when they make a tier too difficult.

People who are struggling on Anabesios p12s p1 and p2 are not lacking in skill right now, it's a matter of just too many mechanics to deal with to consistently clear it and it was the same way with p10s when it was fresh: people either got blocked by it because of losing people going into harrowing hell or got past it.

Telling people that there was a screw up in difficulty is great: but taking no action to resolve the problem is saying the complete opposite. I don't even know if echo would fix the problems completely, but at least it would increase the number of times groups can consistently get to p2.

I will take "How to make the game much easier for 500 Alex"

[Derio]

For the last tier of savage its usually at the start of the next expansion for echo when its not loot locked. Since it still has its weekly lockout, it most likely wont have echo until summer of next year.

[VictorSpoils]

Stopped reading at "literally". This argument is not convincing.