Would you rather healers get more complex healing kits or more complex DPS kits?

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]I remember having to be solo healer in OSRS's Barbarian Assault. There, 'healing' was 'on the GCD' (that is, it was one action per 0.6s. Healing yourself, healing ally, attacking has a various speed based on weapon that is a multiple of 0.6, etc). I could heal 5 HP per 'heal action', could do one heal per 0.6s, had only four charges of the heal before I had to go to a pool to refill my heal bottle, and the boss hit everyone in the team (5 players) for anything between a 0 and a 12, every 3.6ish seconds. And despite all of that, I STILL had extra responsibilities to do. Poisoning the enemy 'healer' mobs with poisoned food, helping prepare the superweapon for the last boss, firing the cannons to stunlock certain enemies/help kill them with damage/poison shots

In that last phase, I probably did reach 80% healing uptime. It was 'fun', sure, as a one off thing. Doing that constantly is going to shorten people's lifespans irl from the stress[...]

The only closest case where I felt something similar to those 'very high healing uptime' (to XIV general standard) in XIV was in pre 6.1 Frontlines especially when 3 alliance just keeps headbutting each other on Onsal Maps at middle ovoo. Yet even that still pales in comparison.

[...]People in normals don't want to think (sadly)

It's valid wanting to be lazy. What is odd is being lazy & being adamant on gating another from performing better even at reasonable degree.

How much was it again; 1-3% variance? Is that the requested gap? (I can only guess from snippets) I guess real doctor gets paid 3 cents higher monthly than quack doctors then? If that's not an insult, I don't know what that is.

[Aravell]

The only closest case where I felt something similar to those 'very high healing uptime' (to XIV general standard) in XIV was in pre 6.1 Frontlines especially when 3 alliance just keeps headbutting each other on Onsal Maps at middle ovoo. Yet even that still pales in comparison.

I think the closest we have to what the people who are asking to heal all the time want was The Feast ranked match Culling Time before medkits. That was as close to 100% healing uptime as we got, especially trying to keep a ranged alive through burst. People who experienced it back then would understand how stressful that was, I don't think it's a good idea to apply that to the entire game.

[Shurrikhan]

Maybe I should draw out my proposed rotation (and the current one) on xivrotation, so we have a visual reference of the difference in Glare-Per-Minute (as if the pie charts weren't good enough at making that point)

Hard to be much clearer than the pie charts as is, but quick question: does xivrotations let you put up custom actions/icons? If so, I'll have to make use of that for a mock-up (even if my hope is that actually healing should almost never be well represented by a visual like that).

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I think the closest we have to what the people who are asking to heal all the time want was The Feast ranked match Culling Time before medkits. That was as close to 100% healing uptime as we got, especially trying to keep a ranged alive through burst. People who experienced it back then would understand how stressful that was, I don't think it's a good idea to apply that to the entire game.

I have never been in The Feast myself but the ones in old FLs also weren't uncommon to see folks whining how stressful it is to be healers and would rather go in as DPS and hope for the best. Giving that to normal content 100% of time? Don't think that would end well lol.

Adding more baggage into the mix, those situations are also a stark reminder why bad and good healers were far more distinct than ever. A good healer in those moments could keep a handful DPSes alive through extended assault. The bad ones simply just press buttons blindly & hope for the best (it rarely works well).

[Shurrikhan]

The problem with #2 asking for more complicated healing actions is that the way they design fights just doesn't work with complicated healing. There's not enough damage, not enough variations of -how- fights do damage, and everything is far too formulaic.

If in isolation, sure, but... who would prefer to keep fight design mostly just as it is now if there were improvements otherwise possible (that we could, as a community, reach a consensus on being net improvements)?

So, totally agreed, but I had assumed context changes were at least a permitted bundle with that option, haha. Costly and therefore likely a pipedream? Sure. But permissible and possible nonetheless.

[Maltothoris]

Healer DPS is still irrelevant outside of Savage to this day. Extremes are tuned to be killed with minutes to spare if people stay alive and do a bang average job of holding their rotations and GCDs. As for why healer dps has steadily become the norm, IMO it's a combination of barriers of entry being removed. Cleric Stance was the big one, but fights being slower and more visibly choreographed is another factor, as is much more abundant self sustained MP resources that aren't reliant on Ballad/Bishop anymore.

The other that happened was Savage Second Coil. In addition to a few new things per fight, bosses did more damage and had more hp.(For example nael went from 765k to 912k) The more damage thing was an issue cause the bosses were doing more damage than what bis gear was able to handle at that point. In order to circumvent this, dps and healers had to used crafted gear with melded vitality in order to survive the big hits. This kind of played into another issue was that all bosses had increased hp but the enrage timers for all the fights were the same. So with this issue and the aforementioned loss in dps from the crafted gear meant they have to make for the lost dps. This is what lead into supports starting to dps for sch starting heavily dps while tanks would tank bosses in their dps stance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZKWcwqkwmk here we have an example of second coil savage where the sch is dpsing heavily in the first phase and when the golems showed up.

Heres another example where both healers are stance dancing throughout the whole fight and if they hadn't, they would of wiped to enrage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBPMvL7hgnI

[Aravell]

I have never been in The Feast myself but the ones in old FLs also weren't uncommon to see folks whining how stressful it is to be healers and would rather go in as DPS and hope for the best. Giving that to normal content 100% of time? Don't think that would end well lol.

Adding more baggage into the mix, those situations are also a stark reminder why bad and good healers were far more distinct than ever. A good healer in those moments could keep a handful DPSes alive through extended assault. The bad ones simply just press buttons blindly & hope for the best (it rarely works well).

One more thing I forgot to add. The absolute stress of healing in The Feast got so bad that the healer population tanked hard, healers were the bottleneck to getting a queue to pop. This caused SE to add medkits, which are meant to alleviate the healer stress somewhat, but what ended up happening was that people would either pop the medkit way too early or not use it at all and then blame the healer for not healing.

There was widespread bashing of any healer seen as sub-par in private CWLS and discord servers, some even sent hate /tells directly to healers they deem bad. Funnily enough, this type of thing was seen in PvE content very recently. P8S P1, in the early weeks, when everyone didn't have much gear, Stomp Dead would occasionally kill casters in certain comps (I think it was DRK/GNB because no physical party mit) if the melee didn't use Feint, but everytime someone died to it, the healers would get blamed, rarely would anyone else be blamed.

I can guarantee that greatly increasing healing requirements would also come with a large amount of people bashing healers they deem sub-par, which will lead to a massive shortage of people even willing to heal anymore, because no one likes being blamed for something out of their control. This has all happened before, there's no reason to believe it won't happen again.

Which is why I personally advocate for a modest increase to healing requirements along with a modest increase to complexity of the damage kit. A balance should be struck to satisfy the most people, not lean really far one way and say "Well, they can fix the other side of the kit later if it's still an issue, haha".

[Hyperia]

This is just my opinion as of the time of this posting, but I really have given up that healing is going to change in this game. The devs have gotten into a comfortable spot where things are good enough and they don’t want to change the formula anymore.

While a part of me will always keep the flame of hope alive, the rest of me has resigned myself to enjoying the story and accepting that my WHM is nothing more than a green dps that gets one or maybe two moments in a raid where my existence is possibly justified.

Don’t mind me… I’m going to go back to my corner with a pint of ice cream and reminisce of the old days when healers were needed and loved.

[Renathras]

So, we're doing this now.

Again.

Yet again.

There's a part of me that wants to go through each of these, Aravell's (for example, "What part of change basically EVERYTHING is 'healing requirements is the only possible solution', exactly?"), Sabezy's (a very simple one would be to ask "What do you think '...as well as its mechanics' means?"), Roe's ("Did you...read what I said LITERALLY right after that? My issue was more you saying I didn't agree with it when I...DID agree with it?"), etc, showing how you guys are wrong AND gaslighting AND lying. To defend myself from your grotesque and YET AGAIN uncalled for attacks as well as show you for the awful people you are AGAIN.

/sigh

...but what's the point? Any neutral person can see how you're all ganging up on me and how you've collectively derailed literally every thread on healing and healers at some point or another to have a good ol' fashioned "everyone attack Ren" party, and how you all like and upvote each other's posts (all 8-10 of you) to make yourselves look good and make me feel isolated and alone. And there's a 0% chance that any of you will go "Oh, right, we're actually wrong about something." For all people insist I refuse to admit I'm ever wrong and think I'm right about everything, I DO from time to time admit I'm wrong when I am, while you guys never do. And what happens when I do? Oh, you bring that up in threads months later to tell people not to listen to what I say, simultaneously claiming I never say I'm wrong AND using me doing so as proof that I'm wrong at all times and shouldn't be listened to.

And more than that, I don't WANT to attack anyone. I WANT to have good faith discussions. I WANT people to listen to each other and talk to each other. "Herp derp, you have to fiiiiiiiiirst!!"; great job, you've just managed to replicate the logic of a 5 year old in a losing argument who doesn't want to act mature. I DO try, at least, unlike you guys gunning for me.

But guess what?

I don't ****ing care.

It's such a waste of time to address the ENDLESS attacks and bad faith derailments.

This is yet ANOTHER discussion you guys have collectively destroyed into ruin.

WAY TO GO!!! YOU GUYS HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DERAILED YET ANOTHER THREAD!!!

Happy now?

You've managed to take yet another thread that was good discussion, with people presenting arguments and positions for various positions, and derailed it into whatever THIS toxic nonsense is. AGAIN!

And you wonder why Yoshi P doesn't listen to you and why some people aren't inclined to give you what you want...

.

And I still suspect this question is too hard to answer, because for all that you guys LOVE bashing me, you literally don't know what I'm advocating for:

But, I'd like too turn this question to you - and the others here:

Not a caricature or ad hominem: What do you think I want? Can you honestly say what it is that I want to see? No "I guess" or silly quips, no straw manning. What is it you think I want to see done to healers? AND to encounter design/overall game design regarding healing - since that's a big part of what I personally think needs to happen?

...maybe start by seeing what people are actually advocating for before you attack them. I've not at all said "only change healing". I've said IF WE ARE FORCED TO PICK JUST ONE OR THE OTHER (since some people argued we can only do one right now because apparently - and they didn't justify why this MUST be true - we can only do things in a small increment of changing one thing, even if we make major, non-incremental changes to that one thing such that changing everything together in increments would actually be less of a big deal than what is being asked for DPS actions changed in isolation) that healing requirements would be the thing to change.

And yet, my position is that EVERYTHING needs changing, and the game has tackled a lot of this better in the past. 1T/3DPS runs and no-healer Savage/Ultimates weren't a thing in the past like they are now, not because we had more DPS buttons, but because the game through encounter design and Job kits - healers AND non-healers - required it. You didn't have a PLD able to solo level 60 4 man dungeon bosses in HW with Cure 1 Cross-Classed from CNJ, or WAR being unkillable. Healers were not COMPLETELY SUPERFLUOUS. That's because of encounter design changes and non-healer Tank/DPS Job healing, mitigation, and sustain.

THAT is a BIG problem, and not one solved by giving healers more DPS buttons.

Clearly, more than just "more DPS buttons" needs changing, and if we WERE to change literally only one thing, the thing to change would be incoming damage from encounter designs. People say all the time how much more exciting something like Ala Mhigo is than something like Lapis Manalis. That's not because healers don't have enough DPS buttons, it's because healing is barely necessary.

What part of "change it all" is "only change the healing side", exactly?

As KenZentra said:

Ren has been saying nonstop that both DPS and Healing kits need to be reworked with both of those interacting with each other all the while that each healer be unique from each other so each plays differently. and that several aspects of the game need to be reworked anyways to fix the dull, mind numbing aspect of Healing as a role such as how damage is sent out and mitigated by several classes, massive healing potential and mit from most tanks, and how mechanics are handled by design. He hasnt said healing should be the ONLY change, but that you COULD let the healing kit be the only change TO healers.

...

Its just so bizarre to watch someone, advocate FOR having both, and people yell at him that we do not need a rework of healing kit or that the damage profile of encounters doesn't need to change, and people just saying he is wrong because of what healers have right now and what is expected of them right now.

.

God damnit you guys suck...

It's intensely frustrating trying to have good faith discussions with a dozen people judging your every word trying to find a misstep to call you on, and even if you don't make any, outright making ones up to spend pages and pages talking about and derailing thread after thread over. Because how dare anyone be able to actually have a good discussion on the topic.

Not because you're wrong, not because you're a jerk, not because you deserve it, but because they WANT you to be wrong, they WANT to oppose what you're asking for because if they treated it fairly, it SOUNDS pretty reasonable, and because they NEED to attack you personally and discredit you instead of dealing with your arguments, because the arguments themselves and your positions are pretty reasonable and would be seen as such by neutral parties unless they can gaslight and prevent those people from giving you and your positions a fair shake.

It's the most horrible thing you can do in a civilized setting to a person, yet the same thing, again and again and again...

.

In any case, I will continue to advocate for what I feel is right, and if you have any sense of reason or compassion, you should ask yourselves why you feel the need to attack me and derail topics over and over again.

But as for me, it's time to move on from your endless toxicity. I left that other thread because you guys were being toxic butts to me in it. I did skim a few pages after I left, which were you guys bashing me in absentia, joking about how I'd be back, etc. But I didn't come back. And people stopped posting in that thread. Then they came and crashed this one so they could do the same thing again, putting the lie to the people there saying it was me derailing threads and it was all my fault and how bad a person I am, since that wasn't happening here until you guys came over into this thread after getting tired of not having your punching bag available to beat up on in that thread since I made good on my word and DIDN'T come back.

Such horrible behavior...yet you did it. Bashing a person who left and then chasing them down when they didn't come back for more for once.

Sucks. This just completely sucks. Yet again and again and again...

Go ahead. Snarky comebacks. Some namecalling. Let's hear it. Do your worst - you will anyway, may as well just throw your napalm and destroy yet another thread. It's what you do best...

.

Out of those two options I'd prefer the second, sprinkled with a bit of the first. There is a need to make healing better and make the solo experience better.
...
I will continue to advocate more DPS to Sage. It needs them.

Do agree with this myself. I don't think we need more healing actions, but more healing in encounters and more situations to use our various buttons that we have, as well as more interactions between our heals, would be great.

[tearagion]

great fuckin' job guys, you derailed the thread by talking about healers. maybe the next one will pick the correct route for the good end.