Would you rather healers get more complex healing kits or more complex DPS kits?

[SargeTheSeagull]

You want attrition style healing where you almost never DPS? Go play WoW.

I mean “almost never” is pretty inaccurate tbh. I mean disc priest and mistweaver heal directly by dealing damage. Aside from a couple “oh shit” buttons you can’t heal without dpsing as them. Holy paladin can’t generate any of its main healing resource without dpsing (without a specific talent build) and one of its main healing avenues is an attack that debuffs the enemy and anyone who hits that enemy is healed. And a bunch of its heal cooldowns are like macrocosmos/pneuma ie damage neutral. Preservation evoker’s main avenue of maintaining MP is by evoker’s signature dps channel, plus if you go for a certain build then your fire breath attack heals party members. The only healbot healers are resto shaman and resto Druid and even then their DPS kits are way more involved than that of healers in 14.

All that to say, even in a game where you need to heal ~80% of the time you still have tons of ways and tons of time to deal damage in fun interesting ways.

[Mayhemmer]

I mean “almost never” is pretty inaccurate tbh. I mean disc priest and mistweaver heal directly by dealing damage. Aside from a couple “oh shit” buttons you can’t heal without dpsing as them. Holy paladin can’t generate any of its main healing resource without dpsing (without a specific talent build) and one of its main healing avenues is an attack that debuffs the enemy and anyone who hits that enemy is healed. And a bunch of its heal cooldowns are like macrocosmos/pneuma ie damage neutral. Preservation evoker’s main avenue of maintaining MP is by evoker’s signature dps channel, plus if you go for a certain build then your fire breath attack heals party members. The only healbot healers are resto shaman and resto Druid and even then their DPS kits are way more involved than that of healers in 14.

What I would give to have even some of this level of kit interactivity in this game... I might be overestimating my understanding of the current woes of healing in 14, but it feels (to me) like they (whoever on the dev team actually pens the job design stuff) very desperately want 'healing tools' and 'damage tools' to be mostly in separate rooms, with the notable rare exceptions. They don't get to play together. Maybe I'm just pining for an entirely different approach to healer design at this point, but I just want the role to provide an experience that is both fun, and one I can't get playing other roles. I feel like I don't have the former because the latter is so underwhelming.

[Renathras]

You know, for someone who is constantly on people’s...

When people are talking about HW and SB - HW and SB were on that par of thing. And SOME proposals (Roe's WHM one) is effectively a second DoT (in this case a CD with a specific duration, but other than being a bit less annoying to track is effectively the same thing in terms of button cadence) and a 3 hit combo under burst.

If you like I can reword that to "a second CD, this one a GCD, and a 3 hit combo in a burst every 40 sec or so", but the end result is the same.

Some of your proposals have been more in depth, but none of them are an incremental change. And any proposal at or below Tank levels is still going to be boring within 6 months. Don't think so? Go ask the Tank Forum if they're bored with their DPS rotations or not. Really wanna bet on their answer being they're consistently thrilled and engaged by them? Their answers will probably be various flavors of how boring and samey they are, with the only saving grace to your argument being the occasional person saying "I mean, at least it's not as bad as healers, but it's still bad".

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Healing changes CAN be enough alone, but they shouldn't be alone.

Encounter design, healing kit design and potencies, the kits of other Jobs contributing to healing and mitigation, etc etc AS WELL AS dps abilities must all be on the table together.

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I'll keep asking for good faith discussions because I continue to speak to the topic and NOT misrepresent people pretty consistently. Way MORE consistently than you, at any rate Mr. ring-tailed-lemur-with-a-brain-injury. You aren't exactly one to speak to the topic of good faith discussions with quips like that...

You go play WoW. Your toxic attitude would fit right in there, at least.

What I would give to have even some of this level of kit interactivity in this game...

Same.

I would love a game where our healing and damage kits across the healers were diverse so people could play a more damage focused rotation with healing or could play a healing focus.

It's what I mean by the 4 Healers Model.

It'd be nice to have a game where people weren't insisting everyone be a Disc Priest.

[Mayhemmer]

I would love a game where our healing and damage kits across the healers were diverse so people could play a more damage focused rotation with healing or could play a healing focus.

It's frustrating that I can't articulate what I want out of a healer other than "feel good gameplay" based just off ideas I think are neat and would like to see, but I KNOW I'd like a healer (or even just a support dps caster) that focused less on stringent adherence to a rotation or 30s/60s/90s/120s, and more on something at least a bit more dynamic. That being, incoming and outgoing damage. Similar to how Sage's PvP versions of Kardia and Eukrasian Dosis III function, but fleshed out into an entire job and given more depth.

Maybe I'm naïve, maybe a concept like that wouldn't function well in 100% of content 100% of the time, but I bet it'd at least be pretty damn fun.

[ty_taurus]

"a second CD, this one a GCD, and a 3 hit combo in a burst every 40 sec or so"

Still a terrible representation of what anyone has asked for. Is that honestly what you have taken away from the literal 2 years of arguing you done with the group of players around the forums? If so, then it just goes to show that you don't respect anyone enough to truly read what they write and listen. "a 3-hit combo" my ass. You mean the thing several players have specifically advocated against?

Want good faith discussion? Fix your response for real, or a toxic response is what you've earned. You get what you pay for.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]All that to say, even in a game where you need to heal ~80% of the time you still have tons of ways and tons of time to deal damage in fun interesting ways.

Outside the very old classic Ragnarok Online, I don't think I remember playing any other MMO with "heal ~80% of the time" and I was quite one of the trashiest healer due to lack of experience & likely having biased view myself from that alone. Still, I had a vague memory where there were few times I remember I could help dish out some damage. Not much, but it was something. I wonder what other better, more experienced healers would perform? I bet they did 'non-heals' far more than I did.

[...]Imo best course of action is to just ignore him.

Sadly even if you do, you can still see some snippets of their quotes when it's brought up into another's replies. At least it's good for laughter when you're bored of 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 in-game, lol.

[ty_taurus]

Sadly even if you do, you can still see some snippets of their quotes when it's brought up into another's replies. At least it's good for laughter when you're bored of 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 in-game, lol.

When what feels like the conversational equivalent to shoving your head into a food processor is more entertaining than actually playing as a healer, you know there's a problem.

[Renathras]

And so now we've entered the part of the thread where you guys derail it to attack me and then blame me for being everything wrong with conversations and preventing good discussion:

In other words, "The stopping point around which a given status quo should be given additional weight for the mere fact of existing at that point in time... is wherever it favors my interests, regardless of however many healer mains' favored experiences were stripped from them to the point of their leaving their main job, role, or even the game in getting to the point I like and want protected."

"Don't let me do any more than I do now, as I don't want to feel encouraged to do any more than this. No, I don't care that others' experiences had to be trimmed/dumbed down just to get here."
...
The only players to whom outright replacing any ability to contribute outside of healing --and therefore have one's contributions scale with competence without necessarily making the role painfully inaccessible (and with wholly bimodal, non-scaling contribution even then)-- would appeal is those who want an easier time of same-monitor Netflix-and-fill-while-cycling-CDs.

Stop asking for good faith discussion when you continue to turn around and intentionally misrepresent others’ arguments simply because you don’t like them.
...
Go play WoW.

Remember he's the only one who's right.

Imo best course of action is to just ignore him.

Tho I think Thur is right and it’s generally a good idea to just ignore him, that little lala sure as hell can make me laugh sometimes.

It's like when a flat earther argues with an astronomer.

Sadly even if you do, you can still see some snippets of their quotes when it's brought up into another's replies. At least it's good for laughter when you're bored of 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 in-game, lol.

Very very truncated summary of what Ren said to Sebazy. I have to point this out because of how mine smashingly stupid this statement is. Ren suggested making most fights’ damage profiles roughly like harrowing hell from P10

Narrator: Ren did not, in fact, suggest that. Sebazy decided to run numbers and used that comparison herself.

Still a terrible representation of what anyone has asked for. Is that honestly what you have taken away from the literal 2 years of arguing you done with the group of players around the forums? If so, then it just goes to show that you don't respect anyone enough to truly read what they write and listen. "a 3-hit combo" my ass. You mean the thing several players have specifically advocated against?

Want good faith discussion? Fix your response for real, or a toxic response is what you've earned. You get what you pay for.

Dude, I'm polite to people unless they're abject arses to me, and I'm never the one that starts throwing insults or attacks. In other words, I'm not the one that introduces toxicity to the situation. I already told you I'm representing ROE'S proposal specifically there. Yet you ignore that because you're on a tirade and want to keep calling me names instead of, you know, address the topic or arguments presented and raised by people you disagree with.

Did I not straight up say "Some of your proposals have been more in depth, but none of them are an incremental change"? Is this another case of you not reading my posts and just responding with insults that would have been avoided had you merely read posts before replying to them?

For the love of god Ren please stop trying to explain to Sebazy of all people how scholar and other healers were in arr/hw.

Which part of that statement, exactly, was wrong?

Was damage to the party more frequent and consistent relative to our kits? Yes.
Did we have less oGCDs then? Yes.
Did we have Cleric Stance then? Yes.
Was GCD healing common and even necessary? Yes.
Was theorycrafting still in its infancy in this game in HW? Yes.
Did Alexander devastate the raid community at the time? Yes.
Did many players believe "healers were for healing" and was this generally accepted by the community at that time? Yes.
...so much so that Cleric Stance was removed in 4.0 as a toggle/stance.

This is very much an ad hominem fallacy of "you don't know what you're talking about, never mind everything you said is correct". Flat earther? Really Ty?

.

But remember, everyone: Ren is the problem.

Just so you know, it's hard for people to take you seriously (other than you guys upvoting each other's posts and quote agreeing with each other) that I'm the problem in discussions when discussions go great until one of YOU GUYS decides to go on the warpath attacking me, ignores my response, and the rest of you join in circle-jerking each other's attacks on me.

Hard to see that I'm the toxic one that is disrupting conversations when the conversations - with me in them - are going fine until you guys decide to start bashing me instead of discussing the topic.

I just want to stick with the discussion and see my reply to SargeTheSeagull below.