Would you rather healers get more complex healing kits or more complex DPS kits?

[Sebazy]

It does.

But we're talking about the general community here, not just high end raiders. Not only that, it wasn't even consistent among the high end raider community yet, and world first clears (for example, First Coils) had the WHM not casting DPS spells and focusing on party healing.

Find footage of those world level progression players doing content that wasn't a world first T5 and lets see what we find:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8SgT6Hdnis

Yes, it's a solo heal Titan Extreme in 2.1, and yes, that's cleric stance opener from the WHM.

As for Turn 5 and healers not DPSing in the videos you see, you do realise why they weren't DPSing right?

Healers didn't DPS in the Twintania race because risk aversion was *EVERYTHING*. Groups weren't hitting enrage. They were hitting twisters and dying without being able to understand quite how the mechanic was supposed to work. Thus prog teams were doing literally everything in their power to minimise any element of risk and chance of failure elsewhere so they could consistently hit twisters to try and understand what was going on. The entire T5 race boiled down to who could scratch 8 people together who could pull off the twister puzzle consistently enough to get through the phase with enough damage done to rush the home stretch.

Go watch https://youtu.be/TDJde_SZfNw?si=In3hdEuZVI1ePcez&t=586

Look at how cautiously people are playing for that entire phase. From memory this wasn't the first time they got through twisters fairly cleanly, but I guarantee you they were clenched so tight they could have doubled as pipe cutters after that last collar went down. The silence followed by the cheers says it all.

*Edit* and this is without even broaching the horror show that was healer accuracy and missed damage GCDs on bosses which was a topic in itself.

TLDR: You're throwing around assumptions and conjecture like they are fact. That's super risky sir.

When that became more mainstream was in HW, which resulted in Cleric being deleted because of all the problems it causes. This is also where we start to see the design intent as that's where the famous Yoshi P quote about them not factoring healer DPS into balance came from, and where they shifted to making raid bosses less DPS demanding, and then removed Cleric Stance outright (as a toggle) with the launch of the following expansion.

Because this is all stuff you experienced right?

Fun bit of history for you. You do realise that the actual reason that Manipulator-chan was such a stern DPS check was because we were killing half the raid to skip a mechanic that didn't play nice thanks to slow server ticks and horrible latency (afaik the only region with a legitimate first kill as intended was CN much later down the line?) and also having to kill adds in a VERY precise window whilst juggling res weakness and no resources. Midas wasn't all that different in terms of DPS requirements if you overlook A4S's unintended suicide strat oddities.

Even a blanket suggestion that bosses were overall less demanding for DPS later in HW is bit of a sketchy claim. Was ThordanEX a bigger DPS check than SephirotEX? I remember hitting Sephirot's enrage a pretty healthy amount, meanwhile seeing Thordan's Enrage was like seeing a solar eclipse. And sure, Creator was absolutely an easier tier than either Gordias or Midas, but how much of that was down to the fight being plain easier and how much was down to all the silliness that was skipping entire phases thanks to poor design choices from SE at that time (Something that was seen in ZurvanEX as well, so it was clearly a failure in their production and scripting processes at that point in time).

Lustrate's % healing working in Cleric Stance? Whispering Dawn (double buffed or not) being completely busted until like Shadowbringers? This used to be the main way to heal allies during raidwide due to how often and how bombastically strong it was comapred to what it is today.

Please don't try to rewrite history like that. Ask anyone else who has been raiding since ARR and they'll tell you how it has *always* been this way, like. They are still playing the game, come on.

/thread
/mic drop
/I feel dirty and need a shower for making this pun

[Rithy255]

You're right, I misinterpreted your post. While OGCD's themselves aren't bad, they need to be balanced against the amount of damage the party is taking. Currently we have too much healing/too little damage, and most of it is tightly scripted, which takes away a lot of the planning and resource management aspects that we could have.

Yeah I can fully get where you're coming from if you thought I meant Healers should only gcd heal and barely attack, I could have worded it a bit better, I think ogcds are good with the right amount with the right amount of strength, The big issue I should have highlighted was fight design but that's also the most hardest one to rework.

I think A lot of my issues is I usually play healers/Tanks In a lot of games I'm not just a pure DPS minded player (although I think I play DPS more then healer in ff14 for obvious reasons.) and I think a lot of DPS players look at Healer and go "oh that's boring, one damage button seriously?" when the issue is more that Healers fail to appeal to healer players. While DPS buttons may make healer slightly more fun, I almost always would still rather Just play a DPS at that point,

I think DPS buttons and differences could even be fun on healers it just has to be interesting Like what I loved about SHB white mage is that you had Long cast times so it felt more like a healer version Black mage and positioning was more important, Now you barely need to cast to move (1.5 with slide casting), So that feels a bit lost to me... Personally With DPS I just want the healers to have slightly different things without being a actual rotation with certain things like proc's or different cast times as I mentioned.

The Thing about Healer design I think people don't realise is that it actually negatively effects a lot more then just healers, Utility is a key example which I've already talked about I love that some DPS actually have utility and support options but if it doesn't even help most the time nor save Healer GCD's then it feels pointless to have said utility.

[PyurBlue]

The big problem with oGCDs isn't that they exist

Right, if OGCD heals are too strong and are all purpose problem solvers, then the balance gets thrown off and healers are left with oversimplified DPS rotation and oversimplified healing tools (press random OGCD).

I lean more toward encounter design being the problem, but you can approach it from the class design standpoint and weaken OGCD abilities to make healers think more about healing. Just don't go too far and reverse the problem so that healing is pressing the same spells constantly.

This would be fine, except then what do you do with that empty GCD?

The thing about damage is that it's the easiest kind of filler to have because outputting damage is never a bad thing. With healing you can overheal, so there is such a thing as too much healing. I think you can have an interesting healing system even if the rotation is DPS heavy, maybe by tweaking OGCD skills to work in combinations rather than stand alone abilities. Things as they are now are far from perfect, but I can see potential in weaving heals between damage casts. The system looks salvageable, though the best way to do that would need to be worked out.

The big issue I should have highlighted was fight design but that's also the most hardest one to rework.

That's true, especially when it comes to reworking existing content. On the other hand I feel like some amount of encounter design evolution needs to happen to bring the most out of healing.

While DPS buttons may make healer slightly more fun, I almost always would still rather Just play a DPS at that point

Without healing, healers just become simplified DPS like you said, so the healing aspect does need to be prioritized. FF14 is naturally very focused on damage by design, and I think that's partially what lead to the current situation we're in regarding GCD vs OGCD healing. Predictability of damage is a big factor as in most cases you can map out what to press through a fight and stick to that list unless things go very wrong. Simply adding an element of randomness should do a lot to shake up how players approach healing, and I think it would also naturally increase the value of GCD based healing since it's more responsive without cooldowns.

what I loved about SHB white mage is that you had Long cast times so it felt more like a healer version Black mage and positioning was more important

I completely understand how you feel about WHM. With the long cast times it made positioning feel a lot different than AST for example which gave them both a bit more identity.

The Thing about Healer design I think people don't realise is that it actually negatively effects a lot more then just healers, Utility is a key example which I've already talked about I love that some DPS actually have utility and support options but if it doesn't even help most the time nor save Healer GCD's then it feels pointless to have said utility.

I usually look at DPS utility as more of emergency buttons than something to help healers, but there is a bit of both. Addle and Feint are definitely support tools while Manaward and Second Wind either help the caster directly or are reserved for atypical situations. When I'm healing I sometimes notice the DPS trying to help by using their own skills, but sometimes it doesn't really amount to anything because I'm going to just AoE heal everyone anyway. Circling back to what I said about unpredictability, I don't mind keeping the utility tools as infrequently used backup options, but I can also see your viewpoint where they would become more commonly relied on to help maximize party performance through cooperation between DPS and healers.

Also sorry for the really short quotes, I was trying to keep the post under the text limit so I wouldn't have to edit in my response, but I went over anyway.

[Hyperia]

I always believed using GCD heals was an artform in itself back in 2.x days before they started to get replaced with oGCDs. I loved figuring out when I needed to time my heals so they would do the most good. Regen was always up on the tanks and stone skin for tank busters, I managed those like I would a DoT. I didn't have to worry about DPS much back then as healing was needed more, real healing, not an Assize and let the players regen up for the rest of that part of the fight. I enjoyed having to think a bit about how and when I use my heals but now, its just a reflex oGCD use and back to spamming DPS.

[Aravell]

I firmly believe that the entire healer kit must evolve together as a whole. Both the healing kit and the damage kit are important to the job, advancing one over the other is a mistake and would eventually lead to the stagnation of the portion that remains the same and not evolved. Not allowing one portion of the kit to evolve risks alienating players who enjoy that portion, as much as people rag on the ones who want more damage buttons, they are also healer mains, possibly even healer mains for longer than you.

There has not yet been a compelling reason why one side of the kit has to remain the same and stagnate while the other portion is allowed to evolve. There is also no singular solution to the healer problem.

[Doragan]

and this is without even broaching the horror show that was healer accuracy and missed damage GCDs on bosses which was a topic in itself.

Oh no... I feel like I'm relapsing. Must.. add.. accuracy.. on the anima..
Well, I say that, but atleast I got the most PRECISE codex one could get, I suppose.. I think we can be all in agreement that precise mechanic wasn't it.

I do agree about evolving the role, but considering the PLD changes and the upcoming AST "rework", I'm sincerely worried about how the role is going to play out in DT.

[ty_taurus]

If you could shift encounter design and damage profiles back to SB levels, then take EW WHM and combine it with SB SCH and HW AST, you'd probably have a really good set of healer Jobs and most players would probably be pretty happy with that result, like as not.

Why did you specify HW Astro specifically instead of SB? There are differences, but what about SB are you suggesting we avoid? Cause that could imply dropping Earthly Star which is probably the most well-liked heal on Astro’s hotbar, and/or imply going with CDR Spear instead of Crit Spear. Or is there something about HW Astro you’re wanting returned? A second DoT? Or Stella?

[PercibelTheren]

I don't neccessarily need a complex DPS kit but I would like fights to force me to use my entire healing kit. I want fights where I don't just throw down 1 or 2 OGCDs and call it good. I want situations where healing over time is needed, where big instant heals are needed, situations for delayed and compound healing, situations for shields, etc.

It's not exactly what I mean but Thordan Unreal has been a blast for me because it's tuned to where I have to actually GCD heal sometimes and I feel like I'm actually doing something beyond being a shitty DPS.

[Ayer2015]

I would prefer to see more complexity added to damage abilities and a streamlining of healing abilities. If the devs are afraid of adjusting encounter design, the other option is to lower healing output. Reducing access to AOE healing and creating true differentiation between healing job capabilities would go a long way.

[Sebazy]

It might be influenced by the times I’ve harped on about how SB AST was a regression in terms of QOL and playability with regards to cards in particular. The loss of MICON OFF and clicking cards zapped a whole optimisation branch and just the way you applied cards in general was a little more cumbersome overall needing more buttons to do the same job. 3.4 HW AST’s cards and time extension mechanics with 4.x’s overall healing kit would be the best combination of the two IMO+++