How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

To be fair, /comfort having an actual gameplay effect in a couple of older dungeons was neat, if a bit out of left field.

Isn’t this the one where you could cleanse out ‘Misery’ debuff inflicted by Gremlin enemies? I was disappointed when I find out the Holminster’s variant straight up give a cleans-able Slow.

[TheDustyOne]

I believe it was, yeah. Gubal (I think both normal and hard?) and Amdapor hard (unsure about normal).

[RitsukoSonoda]

I believe it was, yeah. Gubal (I think both normal and hard?) and Amdapor hard (unsure about normal).

Funnier is I think that debuff is actually caused by the Gremlin actually insulting your character.

[TheDustyOne]

I remember the gremlin mobs in one of the ShB FATEs saying something like "your face is ruining my immersion!" Got a good laugh out of that.

It's the silly things that, while possibly annoying, I find memorable. Emotes having some combat effect is fun and I kinda wish they'd play around with it a little bit more in the odd dungeon or 2.

[Aravell]

As for the original post of 'WHM needs to stay boring and braindead so people who put in no effort can purple parse' (or whatever the exact wording was), I'd assume that to mean 'so that players can hit whatever buttons in whatever order, and still get told they're a good player congratulations we're so proud of you', which... I'd say the 'Blood Lily is nourished by any GCD heal' idea would lead to that particular result? Regen, Cure2, Cure3, Medica2, the Lily heals, just hit whichever one you like, at any time you like. Even if it's overheal, who cares, just whack it and press Misery every 4th GCD

Honestly, not only does making every GCD heal damage neutral produce an absolutely absurd amount of healing for free, it also makes it such that you effectively have no decision to make at all.

If you're told that walking down one path leads to 100 dollars and the other path leads to 10 dollars, you'd definitely go for the former path since you benefit more. But if you see 7 paths in front of you and you're told that every path leads to 10 dollars, why even have a choice?

That's why I said before that full damage neutrality leads to a dead end in design. By making everything of equal value, you effectively lose the ability to make a choice because the choice has already been made for you, you will get the 10 dollars and you will be happy with it, you no longer have the option to go for the 100 dollars.

[Sebazy]

Given how often the issue comes up, I genuinely don't think "the raider PF experience" and "the 'normal' player PF experience" are the same. Do you really think they are? I think there's also a very different caliber of player week 1-2 in clear group PFs than in week 5-8, with a tapering in between. Do you think that isn't true?

Afaik there isn't a Raider PF button and a Normal player PF button, so I beg to differ on that one. Howeverrrrr, yes there is a noticeable difference in the calibre of blind groups early on compared to later down the line. Again, that's nothing to do with evil raiders, it's just a simple byproduct of more skilled players being more likely to have gotten their first clear out of the way sooner. You'll have talented players who waited, but they are the minority and I suspect as more people see this trend, it'll only continue to get worse as people rush to get a kill so they don't have to deal with this.

In my experience at least, if a group's going badly, I'll do my bit to try and engage and coordinate people for that clear. I won't touch DPS for aforementioned reasons but I honestly can't remember a modern Extreme where that's been a problem as long as I can keep people alive and scrape them through mechanics. It's nothing a casual can't do if they have the inclination and motivation.

[Renathras]

Man for someone who had a rule to not engage in hyperbole. You sure engage in hyperbole a lot.

See?

Ok then, if you want discussion, then I'll ask you a question.

You say you want to optimise healing and would be fine with healing being harder, yes? Well, people already optimise healing now, when progging a fight, that's exactly what you do, optimise healing. So in your proposal, what does the WHM player get to do after clearing the fight? There's no longer any need to optimise healing, they've already cleared. What do you propose they do now? What further satisfaction do they get from playing after they clear?

Minor quibble: People optimize healing plans. It's...a distinction, but never mind that for now.

I dunno, I like running fights all the time after I've run them once. Following my optimized plan is enjoyable. That IS fun. I love it when I get to farm an Extreme enough times to have a full plan for the fight and executing my plan. The whole "I love it when a plan comes together" thing. Though honestly, I don't think that's as good as it could be - what I really enjoy is making on the fly decisions in response to things where I evaluate what I have and try to use the most optimal tool for the job (the one Job in the game right now that I feel REALLY gets to do this is probably PLD since it has a lot of utility tools that all have different use cases and pros and cons of using them and are often things you use in response to actions/mistakes), and I wish FFXIV healing was a bit more...that. It IS that in PF and to hear people talk, in Savage/Ultimate prog, as well as 24 man launch week, and pretty much everyone else says that's when they enjoy healing the most, so I don't think I'm the only one that feels this way in an 10,000 foot view sense.

I also get satisfaction from helping people through mistakes, and I don't know the caliber of player you do content with, but I've never had a run of ANYTHING where there weren't at least a few mistakes I had to patch over for people.

So it never gets to any point of "no satisfaction" for me. It's one reason I like healer Jobs as they are now (aside from AST), personally, and why I want to keep one like that.

I do recognize that not everyone else feels that way, which is why I incessantly advocate for some healer Jobs to have more involved downtime DPS kits for those people to derive greater satisfaction from. To me, optimizing DPS is boring and uninteresting, so that doesn't give any satisfaction "after the clear" at all. It's annoying, not needed. So I could just as easily ask you "what do you propose I do now" after I've cleared since I don't enjoy that form of optimization. But I understand others do, and so it's why I am unceasing in proposing something to benefit them, despite them being adamant of robbing me of what I enjoy right now and offering me no such accommodation other than "well, you can just be bad". Do you understand that/does that make sense?

Literally the first thing you do is call everyone stupid. You can’t write this stuff. It is obvious when someone exaggerates. I invite everyone else in this thread to say if they understood “purple parse with no effort” as “spam medica I the whole time”. Seriously, anyone who thought that’s what I meant please say so.

I feel like I need the Judge Judy "Lord, help me with this one" meme.

1) I didn't "call everyone stupid", much less as "Literally the first thing (I) do". I said THAT is stupid, and I reject your notion that EVERYONE thinks it at any rate. So I in no way called everyone stupid. Can you...stop just outright making things up?

2) Clearly, you CAN write that stuff...

3) Is it always? Am I exaggerating right now?

4) Irrelevant. Firstly, a lot of people may say they understood it your way instead of mine just to spite me (a number of people here DO genuinely despise me), but it's also a small sample in addition to being biased. The point remains: If you don't spell things out, you can't be too upset when people misunderstand you. If you've never heard of it, I invite you to Wikipedia "Poe's Law". If you clearly say what you mean, then we can have a clear discussion. Spell it out. What is "no effort" in your mind? Is it "spamming Glare"? Is it "consistently refreshing Dia every 30 seconds, keeping your GCD rolling, filling dead GCDs with Glare, using 3 Lilies per minute, properly fitting Misery into burst windows, using Assize on CD and in the burst window, using FoF appropriately on CD/aligning with raid buffs"? Is that "no effort"? Because if so, we clearly have different definitions of "no effort".

I REALLY wish people would stop outright making up things to insist I said that I didn't to make me look bad. SURELY if I'm so bad you could just use my own words to do so without needing to make any up...

.

...and of course I can't post this because of daily limits. Tried posting a few short posts today and this happened. See why I have to make the big long combo ones? Eh well, there's always tomorrow.

.

Oh, by the by, found this thread on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...ts_shifted_to/

...it seems the views here aren't universal, even looking at FFXIV_Discussion. It seems early on they were downvoting a comment saying more damage rotation was a bad idea, but this rebounded and it's the most liked comment I've found so far (as of this moment, 84 likes). A lot of posts saying to add more DPS actions are down in the single digits while some others talking about how that's a bad idea or would drive people out of the healer role have double digit likes (another I saw had 14). And people there are saying FFXIV_Discussion is a pretty insular bubble that overestimates the popularity of more DPS actions/complexity on Healers. Clearly they've never been here, lol, as that place, while still a bubble, is tame by comparison.

It would seem my view isn't so isolated after all.

.

EDIT to save on postcount:

.

Ahh but he removed that from his sig so now it's fair game

Oh, look, more hecklilng.

I mean, he's not wrong in...

I already corrected you on that in another thread yet you lie about it a second time here? Whatever, heckling. Moving on.

I don’t know who would think it’s feasible...

Probably wouldn't. It's why any serious suggestion about it would be in-depth. What Roe is quoting is where someone asked about some small changes that could be done and nothing else, or a VERY brief discussion about if things could be damage neutral and work where even Sabezy agreed it could, and me and her agreed on the concept that it could be done but would require changes to the overall encounter design, MP management and costs, and so on. Roe left all that out because that would make me seem reasonable and sensible, and she wants everyone to see me as wrong and absurd. In other words, she lied so people would like her posts attacking me.

My position on that is we could make healing GCDs damage neutral to make their use "not bad", and replace the oGCD kit use somewhat to actually use them - people ALL THE TIME complain we have all these healing buttons we do not use - but this would require additional considerations being met. For example, imagine a WHM kit where it didn't have Solace or Rapture, where it didn't have Tetra or Assize or Asylum. Where you actively used Cure 1, Cure 2, Regen, Medica, Medica 2, and Cure 3 instead of oGCD #4 to deal with problems. One of the biggest WHM complaints is "Why do we have Cure 2 and Solace and Tetra?", well, because Cure 2 isn't damage neutral. That's it. If Cure 2 was damage neutral, there'd be no reason for Solace or Tetra to exist. That's the (in a nutshell) answer to that question.

You can use Dia for movement DPS gains, the reason Solace is seen as the better movement tool is because it is...say it with me...dps neutral (with Glare). Cure 2 isn't. Tetra is, though, by virtue of being an oGCD. And because it has a CD, you can use Solace if Tetra is down or Tetra if solace is down. So you don't use Cure 2. If Cure 2 was damage neutral, though, you'd use Cure 2 instead of Tetra or Solace, and you wouldn't need Solace and PROBABLY wouldn't need Tetra (it can be useful for clutch saves, but you have other stuff besides like Benison, which at least is not "Cure 2 but oGCD". And no, the 100 potency gap between Tetra and Cure 2 isn't significant...and was probably an oversight by the Dev team anyway considering Solace matches Cure 2.)

But this would require other things to happen. The big ones being encounter design and MP management. MP management would need to be a thing, and would be the distinction between what you choose to use in the rotation. For example, Glare might cost a pittance (say 200 MP) so that it would be your fallback. Cure 1 and Regen would probably cost 500 (2.5x Glare). You would then have reason to use Glare over Cure 1/Regen during downtime where healing wasn't needed since they'd be equal in DPS but Glare wouldn't burn your resources significantly. You COULD use Regen as a movement tool, but at a MP inefficiency unless you're doing useful healing with it. Medica 2 and Cure 3 would probably be more expensive, discouraging overuse outside of emergency situations.

BAM! Already fixed the bulk of the "problem" right there, preventing "Cure Cure Cure Misery" spam.

The thing is, even at the basic level, Cure Cure Cure Misery IS more engaging than Glare Glare Glare Glare is. It's already more buttons being pressed, and you at least have the option to make semi-meningful choices on who to heal. Besides which, it would more likely be rolling Regen ala WoW Resto Druid healers rolling Rejuvenations across raid groups. Suppose AST Draw and Play were GCDs. They'd already be more engaging than Malific spam because you have to target different people and make decisions about who to use them on.

So even if we DID change LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE, Cure Cure Cure Misery IS more engaging than Glare Glare Glare Glare. Anyone who says otherwise I don't think has much of a leg to stand on.

...but the discussion isn't about changing literally nothing else. It's part of a suite of changes.

Roe left that part out because it would completely defeat her objective, which is to make me look bad, not to have good faith discussion.

To be fair, /comfort having an actual gameplay effect in a couple of older dungeons was neat, if a bit out of left field.

Agreed. Those little "rpg" touches are nice now and again.

Afaik there isn't...

Where did I say "evil raiders"?

Again, you guys are convincing me half the problems you have with me don't actually exist, it's just stuff you (the general/collective you) make up or try to read into what I say.

I never said it was evil, did I?

I said it happens.

My concern is that it happens.

I made no proposition as to they why nor any judgement of character for the people it happens through. That's not relevant. What IS relevant is that it happens and must be accounted for.

That's why I said before that full damage neutrality leads to a dead end in design. By making everything of equal value, you effectively lose the ability to make a choice because the choice has already been made for you, you will get the 10 dollars and you will be happy with it, you no longer have the option to go for the 100 dollars.

The problem in this reasoning is that it only works in a game where damage != >>> all. This is not that game. We'd have to not only change most of the game systems but ALSO change the community's views, the latter of those is far harder than the former.

Also: Things aren't "of equal value". That's why such a change would come with things like MP management. The choices then exist.

[AmiableApkallu]

Oh, by the by, found this thread on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...ts_shifted_to/

...it seems the views here aren't universal, even looking at FFXIV_Discussion. It seems early on they were downvoting a comment saying more damage rotation was a bad idea, but this rebounded and it's the most liked comment I've found so far (as of this moment, 84 likes). A lot of posts saying to add more DPS actions are down in the single digits while some others talking about how that's a bad idea or would drive people out of the healer role have double digit likes (another I saw had 14). And people there are saying FFXIV_Discussion is a pretty insular bubble that overestimates the popularity of more DPS actions/complexity on Healers. Clearly they've never been here, lol, as that place, while still a bubble, is tame by comparison.

It would seem my view isn't so isolated after all.

So, this "most liked" comment is on a thread discussing "healing reduced in complexity" and directly responding to "healers would have healing abilities the same way tanks have mitigation abilities."

Exactly who's arguing for that on these forums these days? There's a big difference between

more DPS complexity

and

more DPS complexity while also reducing healing complexity.

It's no surprise that people might dislike the second, because that's literally hollowing out the healer role (or what's left of it, anyway).

[Thurmnmurmn]

See?

I already said I'm repeating myself. What I'm showing you now by ignoring what you ask is what I actually meant when I said ignore the hecklers.
Like just don't respond. All you did after I said that was still respond and then AFTER the fact you then say "someone told me to ignore hecklers so I will".

I said my part in why I and many others don't agree with your point. No need to answer you further.

Edit: Actually I'll add this bit for you. Do you even realize that half the things you reply to are hyperbole and you treat it as literally? When people say "everyone" or "no one", that's hyperbole.
Just look at your last reply to Sarge

[Sebazy]

Where did I say "evil raiders"?

It's a parody of hardcore raiders being blamed for random things.

Much the same as Sylphies.

It's a tongue in cheek bit of self depreciation to try and add a bit of humour to the post. Nothing more, nothing less sir.