Dark Knight Megathread

[Shurrikhan]

So what is YOUR suggestion for handling the button bloat caused by the many oGCDs Dark Knight has then?
<snip>
even more button bloat that causes the already bloated opener more bloated, and everyone else would seem to be perfectly fine with it until people drop it because the oGCD spam causes clipping issues with the GCD

There is little consensus that DRK is particularly button-bloated. It is the fewest buttons among the tanks. And "solving" that is as simple as in some way wrapping the effective total damage nullification Oblation into either TBN or Dark Mind (changed to be castable on others, perhaps by upgrading to that new "Oblation" form).

Or, as in the post directly above, by trimming the bloat from the Tank Role Actions. We do not need have Rampart siphon power away from our own native tools; we could instead just have a 2nd charge and a lower recast time on our core 60-90s defensives. We do not need separate buttons for Low Blow and Interject. We do not need Shirk. We would not even need our various names for "Tank Stance" if we merely buffed Provoke.



It's also not what makes our opener bloated. Salt and Darkness is not a different button from Salted Earth. The second cast of Shadowbringer is not a different cast from the first. Those 4 edges are not separate buttons. That's a matter of density/timing of casts. On which note...

For the... fifth(?) time now.

You take casts from where the density of casts is too much... and instead put it anywhere the density of casts is too little.

Attaching a MP cost to Shadowbringer and increasing MP generation by 3k MP/min already gives our 2-minute burst back 2 weave spaces. And it gives us 2 more Edges between each of our 2-minute bursts instead of us half-forgetting it exists during those lulls.

Attaching a MP cost to Salt and Darkness and increasing our MP generation by 2k/min gives our opener back 3 weave spaces. And it gives us 1.33 more Edges between each of our 2-minute bursts instead of us half-forgetting it exists during those lulls.

Attaching a MP cost to Carve and Spit / Abyssal Drain and increasing MP generation by 3k MP/min already gives our 2-minute burst back a weave space. And it gives us another Edge between each of our 2-minute bursts instead of us half-forgetting it exists during those lulls.

These each makes zero change to the job's APM. That APM is merely moved from where "There's too much!" to where "There's not enough!"

It is that simple.

[DRKoftheAzure]

For the... fifth(?) time now.

You take casts from where the density of casts is too much... and instead put it anywhere the density of casts is too little.

Attaching a MP cost to Shadowbringer and increasing MP generation by 3k MP/min already gives our 2-minute burst back 2 weave spaces. And it gives us 2 more Edges between each of our 2-minute bursts instead of us half-forgetting it exists during those lulls.

Attaching a MP cost to Salt and Darkness and increasing our MP generation by 2k/min gives our opener back 3 weave spaces. And it gives us 1.33 more Edges between each of our 2-minute bursts instead of us half-forgetting it exists during those lulls.

Attaching a MP cost to Carve and Spit / Abyssal Drain and increasing MP generation by 3k MP/min already gives our 2-minute burst back a weave space. And it gives us another Edge between each of our 2-minute bursts instead of us half-forgetting it exists during those lulls.

These each makes zero change to the job's APM. That APM is merely moved from where "There's too much!" to where "There's not enough!"

It is that simple.

That was not what I was asking, I was asking about the button bloat, not the bloated opener. All you did was answer a question I didn't even ask.

[Shurrikhan]

That was not what I was asking, I was asking about the button bloat, not the bloated opener. All you did was answer a question I didn't even ask.

Because I answered it already in my first post replying to your suggestions?

Step 1: Trim 4 unnecessary button from the Tank Role Actions.

PLD has more buttons than DRK (36 keys). GNB's button count is only 2.8% less than DRK's. Any complaint that can be had of DRK's "button bloat" can be had of every tank (or, at least every non-Warrior Tank).

You can do this by...

• Buffing Provoke to also force the enemy to target you for 5s or until replaced by another Provoke and permanently increase your Enmity generated against the target until replaced by another Provoke. This forgoes any need whatsoever for Shirk and Tank Stance. 2 buttons saved.
  
  
• Replacing Rampart with job-specific kit value. Add a further charge to Camouflage, Dark Mind, and Thrill of Battle and reduce their recast times. Slightly adjust other defensive CDs if necessary to retain similar damage nullification over time. (Dark Mind would be generalized to include physical damage either way.) 3 buttons saved.
  
  
• Consolidating Interject and Low Blow. Keep one or the other, or even replace them with a new name and animation. Whatever. Give it 2 charges and a 20s CD. 4 buttons saved.

Step 2: [Not even remotely necessary] Consolidate 1-2 buttons worth of actions from DRK's own kit.

At this point, you're already down to from 36 to 32 keys, but in the interest of future-proofing(?), I guess we could do any among the following (though I'd advice just 1 at most):

• Turn Oblation into an upgrade to Dark Mind that combines the damage-nullification value over time of both. E.g., 2 charges, 40s recharge, 10s duration, 30% Magic Mitigation and 15% Physical Mitigation.
  
  
• Perhaps merge Edge and Flood into a single Dark Arts that'd be therefore dynamic with whatever skill you want to cast next (or, if changed into a follow-up skill), the one cast before. Or, just merge them outright, such that Edge creates a long, narrow cone beyond the slice, or Flood deals greater damage to its primary target.
  
  
• Perhaps merge Abyssal Drain and Carve and Spit into a single attack (e.g., a Carve and Spit that additionally does 200p damage to all other enemies in a wide cone and heals you for total damage dealt, or an Abyssal Drain that deals 510p to the primary target and 200p to all others and heals you for total damage dealt).

Again, though, I don't think the latter half is even necessary.

In my countersuggestions on the previous page, I technically removed 8 buttons (Shirk, Interject, Rampart, and any need for Grit; The Blackest Night, Oblation, Flood, and Edge), but also added 2 back (Dark Arts and Blood Price) for a net reduction of 6 buttons, putting DRK at 30. 32 and below is already totally fine, though.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Alright, but how do you address the boring filler rotation for Dark Knight then, especially at the lower levels?

Also, side note; on the topic of button bloat for Dark Knight, for my idea I reduced the total number of actions from 36, including Grit, Sprint and Limit Break, to 29 actions total, and the Provoke is actually a nice suggestion for all tanks, so that would reduce it to 27 actions if we apply the provoke suggestion though you would need to make provoke AoE, or you could bring back enmity management for all tanks.

[Shurrikhan]

Also, side note; on the topic of button bloat for Dark Knight, for my idea I reduced the total number of actions from 36, including Grit, Sprint and Limit Break, to 29 actions total.

??? Are you referring to suggestions made on another threat / not within the last dozen pages? There isn't a single removal mentioned in your post. Turning oGCDs into GCDs doesn't remove buttons. It merely makes them compete with each other far worse.

if we apply the provoke suggestion though you would need to make provoke AoE, or you could bring back enmity management for all tanks.

There's no need to have an AoE Provoke. The only use for Provoke is to not need to be able to Shirk, nor, in effect, turn our tank enmity bonus off. By just having the tank stance be already activated upon joining any instance on and the MT opening with Provoke, you'd never need to have "Release [Stance]" on one's bar for mainstay content.

You don't use Provoke to replace Tank Stance; you use it to replace it needing a button.

Alright, but how do you address the boring filler rotation for Dark Knight then, especially at the lower levels?

I have no idea what qualifies as boring filler to you. To me, every tank has a boring filler rotation. And, to me, almost every job is dull before level 70ish (certainly before 60).

[DRKoftheAzure]

??? Are you referring to suggestions made on another threat / not within the last dozen pages? There isn't a single removal mentioned in your post. Turning oGCDs into GCDs doesn't remove buttons. It merely makes them compete with each other far worse.

I technically added 6 buttons, including a predecessor to Shadowbringer at level 62, 7 if you want to include the summon pet rename, consolidated 4 buttons into 1 button, 3 buttons into 1 button, and yet ANOTHER 3 buttons into 1 button, both both sets of 3 being consolidated combos, for a net reduction of 7, 6 if count the renamed summon pet ability. Kept the relatively high APM as best as I could, added pity systems for a suggested Dark Arts rework, because while removing buttons might be easier to balance and to sell and expansions worth of abilities, it would probably be more effective for a rework, like the one I suggested while still introducing an expansions worth of abilities, even if it throws balance out the window for half of an expansion.

So you cannot tell me I didn't reduce button bloat with my idea, which I have a mostly final version of on the top of the previous page. VERY HARD TO MISS IT. In fact you responded to it.

There's no need to have an AoE Provoke. The only use for Provoke is to not need to be able to Shirk, nor, in effect, turn our tank enmity bonus off. By just having the tank stance be already activated upon joining any instance on and the MT opening with Provoke, you'd never need to have "Release [Stance]" on one's bar for mainstay content.

You don't use Provoke to replace Tank Stance; you use it to replace it needing a button.

You should have mentioned that the first time.

I have no idea what qualifies as boring filler to you. To me, every tank has a boring filler rotation.

Spamming 1-2-3 with the occasional 4 every 30 or so seconds and MAYBE a 1 oGCD every 30 or so seconds, especially if it's for an entire fight or dungeon run...

[Oizen]

Alright, but how do you address the boring filler rotation for Dark Knight then, especially at the lower levels?

Isn't that the issue of not having enough buttons? DRK like many jobs is a victim of SE going overboard on cutting skills and mechanics, but also feeling like they need a full 10 levels worth of skills to sell an expansion.

The game is just ass below lv 70. This isn't a DRK specific issue. Level Sync is just poorly thought out and the devs don't even consider it when balancing or even making new jobs.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Isn't that the issue of not having enough buttons? DRK like many jobs is a victim of SE going overboard on cutting skills and mechanics, but also feeling like they need a full 10 levels worth of skills to sell an expansion.

The game is just ass below lv 70. This isn't a DRK specific issue. Level Sync is just poorly thought out and the devs don't even consider it when balancing or even making new jobs.

Yeah, I know. I wish they address how badly designed level sync is.