How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Renathras]

@renathras my own opinion of you aside, one thing you can do to prevent thread derailing into Ren vs the forums is just simply, don't respond to people heckling you.
Since you have a habit of making rather large posts in responses, it gives lots of opportunities for people who dislike you to counter with random bullshit.
Essentially giving fuel for their fire.

This isn't meant as a jab at you (for once).

You're absolutely right. I know you've replied to me some, and you might not have noticed it, but I do this more and more. Where before I might have spent pages, now I'm far quicker to "Here's my response, say whatever you will, I'm moving on" from things.

I will note this, though: EVERY single time that ANYONE has called out the people attacking me - "Guys, we're trying to have a discussion and you're dogpiling on Ren, stop it please." - it stops instantly. The people are cowed and stop when they realize the public ISN'T on their side. It's happened on exactly two occasions I can remember, but people were suddenly very well behaved and threads stopped being derailed...indicating I'm not the one that derails things and makes them about me. But it requires someone else to say it. And that's only happened two times.

Otherwise, especially with their posts getting likes, they think everyone supports their derailing and heckling, so they continue. But it is amazing how ONE person standing up and saying "You guys are the problem, not him, please stop" brings it to a complete end and gets people to act like mature adults and discuss things fairly and in good faith.

But I am trying, more and more, to just do that. I do give a response - I don't like letting lies or accusations sit unchallenged - but after that, moving on or putting replies into HBs so they are out of the main discussion. Sometimes it works. Sometimes the hecklers are determined and will keep egging me on even if I completely stop responding to them (one thread, I had a person quoting every one of my posts and digging at me, even though I wasn't replying to literally anything they were saying). But I am trying to do that more.

...it'd still be nice if, now and again, people DID call out the hecklers, though. Not in a mean way, just a polite "Guys, he's trying to engage with the topic, instead of being mean to him, you should, too." or the like. A man can dream...

I could make it...

...and yet, the difference between a good and bad BLM is far larger than between a good and bad SMN. The difference will always exist, but the gap is relevant, and the more complex a Job is, the wider that gap gets. The point here is that the wider that gap is, the more people slipping up makes content unclearable, and that's bad. The wider the gap is, the more it punishes people on the bottom end of it (in terms of getting clears) for playing as they do now, and that's also bad. Your numbers seemed to indicate a gap of around 7-10% for a person using Glare and Dia every 30 sec, and that's...a big gap.

We will disagree on what "the straightforward healer" looks like. That's going to be a thing. The question I have is more this:

Would you prefer healers stay as they are or get something like the 4 Healers Model where at least some of them are to a complexity of your liking?

It's not a false choice - if the playerbase doesn't agree, then the Devs are very much likely to stick to the default/status quo, and I believe based on your past pessimistic comments about their design direction, you know this. As a compromise, it means people like me who enjoy healing now would continue to do so, and people like you who want more damage to juggle in your downtime would have that opportunity. If the alternative was ShB 3.0 in DT, would you prefer that? I think you wouldn't, but perhaps you would.

Also, "It's just a shortened DoT and a 15s CD"?

New gauge element, goes from 0-100 by using non-Lily damage and heal actions, I call it the 'Nature gauge' because no imagination
Glare now gives 1 gauge
Dia now 12s duration, 150 on cast + 70p per tick (total 430). Gives 5 total gauge over it's duration
Water/Banish added, instantcast 15s CD, 40p stronger than the relative Stone/Glare level, gives 5 gauge on cast
Maybe a shielding Lily spender (400p ST/250p AOE), down with the pure/barrier split it sucks
New healing move, Blessing of the Elementals, costs 50 'Nature gauge', 500p instantcast AOE heal GCD, grants a stack of each of Rage of the River, Wrath of the Winds, Ire of the Earth
Quake, upgrades from Glare/Stone while under 'Ire of the Earth', is 100p stronger
Tornado, upgrades from Aero/Dia while under 'Wrath of the Winds', is 30p stronger on cast and 20p per tick (total 110)
Flood, upgrades from Water/Banish while under 'Rage of the River', is 100p stronger

In bold are all the things that AREN'T "just a shortened DoT and a 15s CD".

THAT.
SAID:

Isn't this the proposal you had once where I said something to the effect of "Replace Assize with Water/Banish, scrap the gauge and just have Presence of Mind upgrade into Blessing of the Elements, and we've got a deal"? I may even have suggested a 60 sec CD for PoM/BoE so we'd get to interact with it more frequently.

I don't want another Faerie Gauge situation. Just make it PoM and replace Assize with Water/Banish. I'd be up for that, and this feels like deja vu me having said this before... Like...I DISTINCTLY remember suggesting replacing Assize with a GCD like that for the third element once somewhere, and I think it was in reply to one of your ideas... (I also suggested it somewhere else, but that was a second time.) I've also suggested having Water/Holy be a thing before, but that was separate.

Alsoalso: Agree with down with the barrier/pure divide, though you already know my solution to that is Pro/Shell being added to Plenary - something I believe you said you agreed with? We don't need a new Lily spender for that, we could just do THAT. And we already have a single target barrier with Benison. Just have Temperance give an AOE barrier and you've got that end covered, too.

...

Quick hits since the rest we've already laid out and there's nothing else to really say:

1% would need to be the gap. We've seen Jobs dropped from content for less.

It's not skewing average to above average, that IS the average. One thing high end players often lose sight of is how exceptional they are. When I get captured on the site (I don't run a parser myself), my runs are usually green/blue for Extremes and gray/green for Savage, but in the 24 mans, they're blue/purple. I think I'm just doing "average" things (like keeping the GCD running), but turns out those are actually ABOVE average things. Setting aside that ilevel and crit variance DOES apply (I'm always going to be doing less damage than someone in full Savage in a farm/parse party), this is still a relevant gap to consider when discussing changes to the game.

You can argue about whether that should be or not, but as I and others have said before, the game does not teach people things like rotations. The only Jobs that do so are the intuitive ones like SMN, and they're routinely badmouthed by...high end players (despite being wildly popular with everyone else - probably for that reason). The vast majority of the playerbase isn't reading offline guides on encounters or rotations, or anything outside of the game at all. That has to be factored into any changes, so the numbers used in analysis need to reflect that portion of the playerbase as well.

Again, the changes don't ONLY affect Savage players, so you can't ONLY consider Savage players when discussing and talking about them.

Any new dps rotation buttons that a healer could get should be entirely new buttons if the goal is to break up the pace of pressing the same one button over, and over again. However, most healer hotbars are already pretty loaded, and are at risk of bloat. So which healing buttons would everyone be willing to either cut or consolidate to make room for extra dps buttons?

And therein lies the rub.

If you say oGCDs, the people that like mostly weaving oGCDs and not having to hardcast heals will get upset.

If you say GCD heals, the people that don't like oGCDs will get upset, and people will point out this would make the gap between beginner and expert huge and likely make even normal content unclearable for many parties (since you've now gotten rid of beginner go-to heals and emergency fall-back heals).

For every ability you mention removing, you will find defenders. I once suggested combining Fey Blessing and Whispering Dawn so it gets an upfront heal and then a HoT and was told that's terrible since it would remove the flexibility of two separate abilities, "dumb down" SCH healing, and so on. There are people that defended Lustrate, there are people that defended Aetherpact. About the only button no one will defend is Benfic 1 (Cure 1 has SLIGHTLY different use cases than Cure 2, and Physic is needed for SCH's in the level 35-50 range of healing AND does more raw healing than Adlo does), and possibly Medica 1 (Medica 2 does the same healing with the base heal + initial tick).

Oh, then you have the people that will insist nothing less than 48 buttons is a problem.

...this is another reason that my 4 Healers Model idea has merit, since it allows each group to have some redress...

My WHM suggestion requires only two buttons at minimum...

If you replace Assize with Water/Banish and have PoM upgrade into BoE (and, again, dump the gauge idea - seriously, too many Jobs have a 0-100 gauge, it's dumb, we don't need more), you could do this without adding a single button. If you then had Cure 1 upgrade into Cure 2 or Medica 1 into Medica 2 (lower M2's MP cost by 100 and up its initial potency to equal M1's and it's a flat upgrade with no downside) and you even clock in at the magic 32 mark.

I also gave you suggestions for SCH: Ruin 2 -> Miasma and Energy Drain -> Shadowflare. I wasn't doing that in jest.

The other two I have more or less written off at this point, so...an if it harm none, do as thou will, so to speak. (4 Healers Model is the "harm none(fewest possible)" in this case. And I MOSTLY agree with you that your WHM proposal might satisfy that...with a smidge of massaging, allowing "do as thou will" with the others.)

fewer abilities on shorter more punchy cooldowns is the way to go.

I absolutely agree with this. One reason I love stuff like Soil/Kerochole is because they have short CDs. Not short enough you can 100% uptime them, but short enough you have access to them most any time you think about them. Contrast things like Temperance/Lilybell or the like which have long CDs so you don't have that availability. GNB gets a mini burst every 1 min and a micro burst every 30 sec and it feels really good compared to options that are on 2 min cycles.

Honestly to an extent...

I actually HAVE used Aquaveil quite a bit this expansion. I do think it might not need to be a separate button, however. For example, at level 86, Tetra could have upgraded to Aquaveil (heal + mitigation), which is how Taurochole works itself. Exaltation could have come from Essential Dignity in a similar vein, or Celestial Intersection. Protraction...is actually more unique. But something like cutting it to 5% and having Lustrate upgrade to adding that effect. Would give Lustrate a bit more of a use case outside of "if you need healing RIGHT this second, everything else is too slow or on CD, and you still have one Aetherflow left...", which would be a good thing even if it was only used in niche situations (so is Protraction anyway!)

[Aravell]

Not done DSR and TOP, but if that's where 'it gets it's moment to shine', that's not a justification for it, a skill that only gets to reach it's full potential in two fights in the game is a bit of a waste imo.

I haven't done TOP, but the lv86 set of stuff gets a chance to shine in DSR during double dragons phase because of the sheer amount of damage the tanks are taking. But 1 phase in 1 ultimate where they actually can help really doesn't much justify the existence of the skills in general. They're not even necessary, they just help a little.

[IDontPetLalas]

Krasis can actually be nice when paired with a Scholar, but that also means double barrier healers, which requires a modicum of coordination between both healers, and that's a HUGE no-no in FFXIV. Talking to your teammates is a sign of atrocious game design.

I've always been convinced that's part of the reason that we lost Noct AST. I realize that most AST, by default, were in Diurnal, but God forbid that someone in Noct forgot to switch if paired with a SCH, or 2 ASTs forgot to run Noct/Diurnal. Better just to take any decision-making out of their hands.

[TheDustyOne]

1% would need to be the gap. We've seen Jobs dropped from content for less.

There is currently no job where playing poorly and playing well is at a 1% gap.

Let's assume for a moment that gear will account for at least half of the discrepancy between the average low parse and average high parse. In this scenario, the difference between a good WAR and bad WAR is 10%, GNB is 13%, and WHM is 20%, and you think it will cause problems past 1%? Even assuming gear makes up 75% of the discrepancy, WAR would still have a 5% difference, and I'm being VERY generous by doing 5% here, I've had personal experiences lately where people better geared than me have done 10% less damage than me (frequently lower), and I don't consider myself a top-tier WAR main by any means.

The only way I can think you've come to this conclusion is from conflating some other statistic, and the only thing I can think of is when people couldn't reach enrage back in Abyssos over 1% HP of the final floors door boss.

You can argue about whether that should be or not, but as I and others have said before, the game does not teach people things like rotations. The only Jobs that do so are the intuitive ones like SMN, and they're routinely badmouthed by...high end players (despite being wildly popular with everyone else - probably for that reason). The vast majority of the playerbase isn't reading offline guides on encounters or rotations, or anything outside of the game at all. That has to be factored into any changes, so the numbers used in analysis need to reflect that portion of the playerbase as well.

Believe it or not, tooltips do actually give some players a decent idea of how to go about starting their job, they just choose not to read those either. I agree that the game doesn't do a good job of teaching, and they should teach players better, but more often than not it's up to players to improve, and they can start by reading their tooltips.

Again, the changes don't ONLY affect Savage players, so you can't ONLY consider Savage players when discussing and talking about them.

I don't think anyone here who has suggested changes to healing has only thought of Savage, the reason they put more emphasis on more damage options is because it doesn't affect the skill floor in casual content, so those players don't get affected all that much. Savage players are in fact the ones that would "lose out" because now they have to work harder for a higher parse, which is the point anyway, because the complaint is that they're frequently feeling unengaged with the content because they're spamming 1 button for 80% of a fight. I'm fine with increasing healing requirements, and want that even in casual content, but it can only go so high, the game was not built for WoW-styled triage.

[Aravell]

So, since people are so up in arms about supposedly losing a significant amount of damage if healers were more complex, I wanted to check how much of an impact losing 10% damage from a healer has, so I looked up a 50% SCH log from P9S because the argument is that casual healers may want to tackle the first floor of savage, and 50% is a perfectly average number.

The dps check of P9S is roughly 64k. A perfectly average SCH currently does about 5600 dps. A 10% reduction in that is 560 dps, losing that 10% is equivalent to 0.875% of the dps check. Why are people so up in arms about this? 0.875% is so insignificant that you can't even pin the blame on the healer without looking like a tool. A 1% difference is even worse, that's 0.175% of the dps check required, that's an absolute non-issue.

EDIT: Made a mistake, I was looking at old numbers, a perfectly average SCH now outputs about 6000 dps, which brings the total of a 10% loss up to 0.94% of the dps check. That's still less than 1% of the total output required to clear, so I still fail to see what the fuss it about.

[ty_taurus]

So, since people are so up in arms about supposedly losing a significant amount of damage if healers were more complex, I wanted to check how much of an impact losing 10% damage from a healer has, so I looked up a 50% SCH log from P9S because the argument is that casual healers may want to tackle the first floor of savage, and 50% is a perfectly average number.

The dps check of P9S is roughly 64k. A perfectly average SCH currently does about 5600 dps. A 10% reduction in that is 560 dps, losing that 10% is equivalent to 0.875% of the dps check. Why are people so up in arms about this? 0.875% is so insignificant that you can't even pin the blame on the healer without looking like a tool. A 1% difference is even worse, that's 0.175% of the dps check required, that's an absolute non-issue.

The point you, myself, and many others here are missing is that it really has nothing to do with the average player's ability to clear. If we were to do something like Roe's White Mage rework, the problem is that someone who engages with the added tools of Banish and the like is going to be numerically better than someone who just wants to spam Glare, or do as much as White Mage currently does and nothing further, regardless of how that does or doesn't influence clear rates.

[fulminating]

consolation and summon seraph go, replaced by rouse. rouse has the added effect of an appropriately scaled shield on each fairy action used under its duration.
indom has its cooldown reduced to 10 or 15s to compensate, also quickened aetherflow is back
protraction is the kind of button that isn't strong enough to be interesting, either needs a buff or needs gone. Thematically I like that it's mini thrill though.
selene returns with fey illumination swapped for a different button while active
energy drain gets the mp generation thing back, dissipation was made worse than it had to be by removing it.
fey union can also go since it's just rouse by another name

[ForsakenRoe]

Man I should have stayed in bed, so I wouldn't have to look at this mess

...and yet, the difference between a good and bad BLM is far larger than between a good and bad SMN. The difference will always exist, but the gap is relevant, and the more complex a Job is, the wider that gap gets. The point here is that the wider that gap is, the more people slipping up makes content unclearable, and that's bad. The wider the gap is, the more it punishes people on the bottom end of it (in terms of getting clears) for playing as they do now, and that's also bad. Your numbers seemed to indicate a gap of around 7-10% for a person using Glare and Dia every 30 sec, and that's...a big gap.

Would you prefer healers stay as they are or get something like the 4 Healers Model where at least some of them are to a complexity of your liking?

It's not a false choice - if the playerbase doesn't agree, then the Devs are very much likely to stick to the default/status quo, and I believe based on your past pessimistic comments about their design direction, you know this. As a compromise, it means people like me who enjoy healing now would continue to do so, and people like you who want more damage to juggle in your downtime would have that opportunity. If the alternative was ShB 3.0 in DT, would you prefer that? I think you wouldn't, but perhaps you would.

Also, "It's just a shortened DoT and a 15s CD"?

In bold are all the things that AREN'T "just a shortened DoT and a 15s CD".

THAT.
SAID:

Isn't this the proposal you had once where I said something to the effect of "Replace Assize with Water/Banish, scrap the gauge and just have Presence of Mind upgrade into Blessing of the Elements, and we've got a deal"? I may even have suggested a 60 sec CD for PoM/BoE so we'd get to interact with it more frequently.

I don't want another Faerie Gauge situation. Just make it PoM and replace Assize with Water/Banish. I'd be up for that, and this feels like deja vu me having said this before... Like...I DISTINCTLY remember suggesting replacing Assize with a GCD like that for the third element once somewhere, and I think it was in reply to one of your ideas... (I also suggested it somewhere else, but that was a second time.) I've also suggested having Water/Holy be a thing before, but that was separate.

Alsoalso: Agree with down with the barrier/pure divide, though you already know my solution to that is Pro/Shell being added to Plenary - something I believe you said you agreed with? We don't need a new Lily spender for that, we could just do THAT. And we already have a single target barrier with Benison. Just have Temperance give an AOE barrier and you've got that end covered, too.

My numbers indicate a 10% gap NOW. Under the gameplay you are demanding remains in the game in some form with your 4 healers thing. If it is acceptable to have that gap NOW, it's acceptable to have it in another design, especially when said design is less punishing by about half a percent, and has room for people to express their skill.

What I want does not matter, because the Devs don't listen to me, or you, or any of us. They'll do whatever they want for DT and nothing any of us say or do is likely to change a thing. They have some mythical 'data source' that tells them things like 'SCHs were forcing WHMs to do all the healing' and making changes based on that. Maybe they do what I ask for, maybe they do what you ask for, maybe they just leave everything as it is and we get SHB 3.0, 4.0 and even 5.0 with two new healing tools added each time that we didn't ask for, and struggle to find a use for

It's just a shortened DOT and a 15s CD, in terms of the damage side of the kit. You're a healer, so healing tools and additional complexity surrounding healing are completely acceptable, surely? Quake, Tornado and Flood are all automatically used by just doing the same rotation. You don't need to think 'oh I need to hold Quake for raidbuffs' because to do so would require that you stop casting your filler spell, and nobody wants that. But, if you don't need the healing from the heal, you could use it one GCD before raidbuffs go out, such that the next three GCDs of damage do naturally land within raidbuffs. That is intentional, because it gives the job an avenue to optimize on, and provides some more gameplay for players to interact with in things where the heal is completely unneeded (like EX roulette)

THAT. SAID: (was this necessary?)

Your constant asking of 'why don't we just replace X with Y' misses the point somewhat. For some jobs, it could work, yes. AST and SGE, I did exactly this, replaced X with Y in terms of effect, to keep button counts the same. For example, changing Krasis from '20% heal up on target' to 'next 4 cast times are made instant'. However, when you suggest something like 'replace Assize with Water', I'm not sure how much thought you have put into the ramifications of what that'd mean. WHM has already historically been the victim of this BS from SE's end. We lost Shroud, and got it given back as Lucid. We lost Stoneskin and got it back as Benison. We lost Divine Seal and got it back as Largesse, then lost that and got it back as Temperance. It'd be hard to get people excited about 'hey you get a new Water ability' if it's followed up with 'it replaces Assize'. Additionally, the damage lost from Assize being removed is 400p per 40s, or 1200 per 2min loop, that needs to be added back to the kit. If we assume it comes from Water (and that this Water is a 15s CD), then the damage gained by using 8 of those Waters instead of Glares (so 8X, where X = WaterPotency - GlarePotency) needs to be equal to the 3x Assize. So, 150p difference, making Water 460 compared to Glare's 310. And if we then take a player who will ignore Dia and Water, and just spam Glare, they'd do 7440p per minute, compared to the player who uses Dia and Water getting 8850. And percentagecalculator.net says... 84.06779661016948%. You've made the damage difference more punishing. The only way you'd get around this is to put all the damage onto Glare instead, which kind of misses the point of having a CD to press. It'd be like saying 'we are removing Upheaval, where do we put the damage? On Fell Cleave/Primal Rend? Nah, put it on Maim'

I don't see why you'd be against being able to apply barriers using a Lily. It allows a player to get mileage out of a Lily spend (to prep Misery) even when player HP is at 100%, and could open up gameplay where the WHM does a shield for a raidwide so that the 'barrier healer' doesn't have to spend a GCD doing so. The barriers would not be as strong as the SCH/SGE ones, so it'd mean working together to work out 'is the WHM barrier strong enough that we can get away with doing that to save a GCD instead of using a SCH/SGE one, or do we need to do bigger shields from the SCH/SGE, and have the WHM instead use that Lily to heal up after'. Additionally, as I've mentioned before, giving every healer semi-reliable access to shields means that the Devs can know that there's a shield available in any comp, meaning 'shield check' mechanics can be created, which would test the healer on how well they are healing (something people ask for a lot). A debuff, for example, that can be blocked by fully mitigating the raidwide that applies it. Or a knockback like Vulcan Burst from Ifrit/Ifrit EX/Ifrit in UWU. They can even make a graphic element for it, like how interruptible casts flash red, this could pulse say, green (customizable in options for colorblind accessibility), and have a shield icon on the bar to indicate it needs to be shielded against

I don't think anyone here who has suggested changes to healing has only thought of Savage, the reason they put more emphasis on more damage options is because it doesn't affect the skill floor in casual content, so those players don't get affected all that much. Savage players are in fact the ones that would "lose out" because now they have to work harder for a higher parse, which is the point anyway, because the complaint is that they're frequently feeling unengaged with the content because they're spamming 1 button for 80% of a fight. I'm fine with increasing healing requirements, and want that even in casual content, but it can only go so high, the game was not built for WoW-styled triage.

If anyone reads my stuff and thinks 'oh they are only thinking of Savage, what about me, the downtrodden casual in the EX roulette', they didn't do a very good job of reading what I wrote. How can you look at what I put for SGE, for example, where every standard GCD, including Diagnosis and Prognosis, has zero MP cost, and think 'yep that's a change that is for the Savage crowd'?

A 1% difference is even worse, that's 0.175% of the dps check required, that's an absolute non-issue.

As I've said before, Crit Variance will kill your run harder than any design I or any other forum user comes up with, trying to boogeyman about 'this will cause damage disparity and lead to enrage wipes' just reveals that the person trying to boogeyman hasn't done the maths, or has and is wilfully ignoring what the maths says to push their point

The point you, myself, and many others here are missing is that it really has nothing to do with the average player's ability to clear. If we were to do something like Roe's White Mage rework, the problem is that someone who engages with the added tools of Banish and the like is going to be numerically better than someone who just wants to spam Glare, or do as much as White Mage currently does and nothing further, regardless of how that does or doesn't influence clear rates.

They want to be rewarded and told they're a good player, without putting in the effort to actually be a good player? Say it ain't so /s

edit:

protraction is the kind of button that isn't strong enough to be interesting, either needs a buff or needs gone. Thematically I like that it's mini thrill though.

Protraction would immediately go from 'whats the point' tier to 'this is great' IMO, by letting us Deploy it. Functionally, it'd then be functionally identical to a shield worth '10% of the target's HP', allowing us to do more mitigation OGCD (replacing a Succor cast at times). Alternatively, it'd allow for us to do Protraction > Adlo (boosted now) > Deploy, and deploy both the Adlo and the Protraction at once for even harder mit, which would allow us (at times) to remove another mit and use it elsewhere (eg maybe Illumination can be shifted to something else).

That'd be interactivity within a healer kit, though, and 'this requires thought to make best use of'. We know SE doesn't want that

[Sebazy]

But let's stop this, shall we? Take what last word you want, I'm going to move on now. With that out of the way...

Yep, I'm fine with that, I've said my piece and ohhh.......

Otherwise, especially with their posts getting likes, they think everyone supports their derailing and heckling, so they continue. But it is amazing how ONE person standing up and saying "You guys are the problem, not him, please stop" brings it to a complete end and gets people to act like mature adults and discuss things fairly and in good faith.

Well never mind then

Maybe they realised it's a waste of time trying to explain things to you because you're stuck in your mindset like a set of concrete shoes and absolutely nothing said is going to make the slightest difference? Maybe they had already said what needed to be said, realised that none of it was understood and decided that it was a waste of time and energy to pursue the point further. And yes, maybe they respect the other people in the thread enough to know when enough is enough and it's time to get back on the thread.

It's not about likes, it's about having respect for the other people on this forum.

Man sometimes I genuinely wonder if it's just an elaborate act? Like no one can have this lack of self awareness right?

So, are we actually done on this topic or what?

I don't think anyone here who has suggested changes to healing has only thought of Savage, the reason they put more emphasis on more damage options is because it doesn't affect the skill floor in casual content, so those players don't get affected all that much. Savage players are in fact the ones that would "lose out" because now they have to work harder for a higher parse, which is the point anyway, because the complaint is that they're frequently feeling unengaged with the content because they're spamming 1 button for 80% of a fight. I'm fine with increasing healing requirements, and want that even in casual content, but it can only go so high, the game was not built for WoW-styled triage.

Pretty much. Savage and Extremes were still tolerable for me, it was going back down to more casual content where things became a mind numbing tedium and as such, when I make ideas, it's actually stuff like alliance raids, fates or even something like maps with a couple of friends. One of my statics tanks was a maps nut and we'd routinely end up duoing maps as everyone else ran for the hills after raid. Mindlessly chatting s**t made it tolerable thankfully because the content itself absolutely wasn't. Even WHM's Lilies barely register as a feature because outside stuff doesn't stay alive long enough to actually get a Misery going.

I'm firmly of the opinion that FFXIV needs to look forwards, not back. If some old content becomes obsolete and needs numbers nuked to at least make it clearable again for the sake of the game going forward then that's a perfectly good trade IMO.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]Pretty much. Savage and Extremes were still tolerable for me, it was going back down to more casual content where things became a mind numbing tedium and as such, when I make ideas, it's actually stuff like alliance raids, fates or even something like maps with a couple of friends. One of my statics tanks was a maps nut and we'd routinely end up duoing maps as everyone else ran for the hills after raid. Mindlessly chatting s**t made it tolerable thankfully because the content itself absolutely wasn't. Even WHM's Lilies barely register as a feature because outside stuff doesn't stay alive long enough to actually get a Misery going.

I am of the same mind.

When I wrote my own idea, I don't feel the need to look at healing portion of the kits unless I'm nerfing them radically (I haven't) because I knew they're going to be enough to handle whatever EX/Savages that the dev could've thrown at us. That part has already been taken care of to some degree, so why not flesh out the damaging part of the kit that's been left on barren soil for so long? Y'know... that one part that we always interact in any given encounter? Give 'em some love?

I LOL'ed at the WHM lily comment because it reminds me of the time when I was doing MSQ on my alt character. Past lv74 before attaining mount flight, I literally let her aggro overworld mobs in purpose regularly just so I can blast out Misery when the quest told me to clean up mobs. I told that to my close friends linkshell and their first response was "Are you that bored bruh?".