How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Aravell]

So, since people are so up in arms about supposedly losing a significant amount of damage if healers were more complex, I wanted to check how much of an impact losing 10% damage from a healer has, so I looked up a 50% SCH log from P9S because the argument is that casual healers may want to tackle the first floor of savage, and 50% is a perfectly average number.

The dps check of P9S is roughly 64k. A perfectly average SCH currently does about 5600 dps. A 10% reduction in that is 560 dps, losing that 10% is equivalent to 0.875% of the dps check. Why are people so up in arms about this? 0.875% is so insignificant that you can't even pin the blame on the healer without looking like a tool. A 1% difference is even worse, that's 0.175% of the dps check required, that's an absolute non-issue.

EDIT: Made a mistake, I was looking at old numbers, a perfectly average SCH now outputs about 6000 dps, which brings the total of a 10% loss up to 0.94% of the dps check. That's still less than 1% of the total output required to clear, so I still fail to see what the fuss it about.

[ty_taurus]

So, since people are so up in arms about supposedly losing a significant amount of damage if healers were more complex, I wanted to check how much of an impact losing 10% damage from a healer has, so I looked up a 50% SCH log from P9S because the argument is that casual healers may want to tackle the first floor of savage, and 50% is a perfectly average number.

The dps check of P9S is roughly 64k. A perfectly average SCH currently does about 5600 dps. A 10% reduction in that is 560 dps, losing that 10% is equivalent to 0.875% of the dps check. Why are people so up in arms about this? 0.875% is so insignificant that you can't even pin the blame on the healer without looking like a tool. A 1% difference is even worse, that's 0.175% of the dps check required, that's an absolute non-issue.

The point you, myself, and many others here are missing is that it really has nothing to do with the average player's ability to clear. If we were to do something like Roe's White Mage rework, the problem is that someone who engages with the added tools of Banish and the like is going to be numerically better than someone who just wants to spam Glare, or do as much as White Mage currently does and nothing further, regardless of how that does or doesn't influence clear rates.

[ForsakenRoe]

Man I should have stayed in bed, so I wouldn't have to look at this mess

...and yet, the difference between a good and bad BLM is far larger than between a good and bad SMN. The difference will always exist, but the gap is relevant, and the more complex a Job is, the wider that gap gets. The point here is that the wider that gap is, the more people slipping up makes content unclearable, and that's bad. The wider the gap is, the more it punishes people on the bottom end of it (in terms of getting clears) for playing as they do now, and that's also bad. Your numbers seemed to indicate a gap of around 7-10% for a person using Glare and Dia every 30 sec, and that's...a big gap.

Would you prefer healers stay as they are or get something like the 4 Healers Model where at least some of them are to a complexity of your liking?

It's not a false choice - if the playerbase doesn't agree, then the Devs are very much likely to stick to the default/status quo, and I believe based on your past pessimistic comments about their design direction, you know this. As a compromise, it means people like me who enjoy healing now would continue to do so, and people like you who want more damage to juggle in your downtime would have that opportunity. If the alternative was ShB 3.0 in DT, would you prefer that? I think you wouldn't, but perhaps you would.

Also, "It's just a shortened DoT and a 15s CD"?

In bold are all the things that AREN'T "just a shortened DoT and a 15s CD".

THAT.
SAID:

Isn't this the proposal you had once where I said something to the effect of "Replace Assize with Water/Banish, scrap the gauge and just have Presence of Mind upgrade into Blessing of the Elements, and we've got a deal"? I may even have suggested a 60 sec CD for PoM/BoE so we'd get to interact with it more frequently.

I don't want another Faerie Gauge situation. Just make it PoM and replace Assize with Water/Banish. I'd be up for that, and this feels like deja vu me having said this before... Like...I DISTINCTLY remember suggesting replacing Assize with a GCD like that for the third element once somewhere, and I think it was in reply to one of your ideas... (I also suggested it somewhere else, but that was a second time.) I've also suggested having Water/Holy be a thing before, but that was separate.

Alsoalso: Agree with down with the barrier/pure divide, though you already know my solution to that is Pro/Shell being added to Plenary - something I believe you said you agreed with? We don't need a new Lily spender for that, we could just do THAT. And we already have a single target barrier with Benison. Just have Temperance give an AOE barrier and you've got that end covered, too.

My numbers indicate a 10% gap NOW. Under the gameplay you are demanding remains in the game in some form with your 4 healers thing. If it is acceptable to have that gap NOW, it's acceptable to have it in another design, especially when said design is less punishing by about half a percent, and has room for people to express their skill.

What I want does not matter, because the Devs don't listen to me, or you, or any of us. They'll do whatever they want for DT and nothing any of us say or do is likely to change a thing. They have some mythical 'data source' that tells them things like 'SCHs were forcing WHMs to do all the healing' and making changes based on that. Maybe they do what I ask for, maybe they do what you ask for, maybe they just leave everything as it is and we get SHB 3.0, 4.0 and even 5.0 with two new healing tools added each time that we didn't ask for, and struggle to find a use for

It's just a shortened DOT and a 15s CD, in terms of the damage side of the kit. You're a healer, so healing tools and additional complexity surrounding healing are completely acceptable, surely? Quake, Tornado and Flood are all automatically used by just doing the same rotation. You don't need to think 'oh I need to hold Quake for raidbuffs' because to do so would require that you stop casting your filler spell, and nobody wants that. But, if you don't need the healing from the heal, you could use it one GCD before raidbuffs go out, such that the next three GCDs of damage do naturally land within raidbuffs. That is intentional, because it gives the job an avenue to optimize on, and provides some more gameplay for players to interact with in things where the heal is completely unneeded (like EX roulette)

THAT. SAID: (was this necessary?)

Your constant asking of 'why don't we just replace X with Y' misses the point somewhat. For some jobs, it could work, yes. AST and SGE, I did exactly this, replaced X with Y in terms of effect, to keep button counts the same. For example, changing Krasis from '20% heal up on target' to 'next 4 cast times are made instant'. However, when you suggest something like 'replace Assize with Water', I'm not sure how much thought you have put into the ramifications of what that'd mean. WHM has already historically been the victim of this BS from SE's end. We lost Shroud, and got it given back as Lucid. We lost Stoneskin and got it back as Benison. We lost Divine Seal and got it back as Largesse, then lost that and got it back as Temperance. It'd be hard to get people excited about 'hey you get a new Water ability' if it's followed up with 'it replaces Assize'. Additionally, the damage lost from Assize being removed is 400p per 40s, or 1200 per 2min loop, that needs to be added back to the kit. If we assume it comes from Water (and that this Water is a 15s CD), then the damage gained by using 8 of those Waters instead of Glares (so 8X, where X = WaterPotency - GlarePotency) needs to be equal to the 3x Assize. So, 150p difference, making Water 460 compared to Glare's 310. And if we then take a player who will ignore Dia and Water, and just spam Glare, they'd do 7440p per minute, compared to the player who uses Dia and Water getting 8850. And percentagecalculator.net says... 84.06779661016948%. You've made the damage difference more punishing. The only way you'd get around this is to put all the damage onto Glare instead, which kind of misses the point of having a CD to press. It'd be like saying 'we are removing Upheaval, where do we put the damage? On Fell Cleave/Primal Rend? Nah, put it on Maim'

I don't see why you'd be against being able to apply barriers using a Lily. It allows a player to get mileage out of a Lily spend (to prep Misery) even when player HP is at 100%, and could open up gameplay where the WHM does a shield for a raidwide so that the 'barrier healer' doesn't have to spend a GCD doing so. The barriers would not be as strong as the SCH/SGE ones, so it'd mean working together to work out 'is the WHM barrier strong enough that we can get away with doing that to save a GCD instead of using a SCH/SGE one, or do we need to do bigger shields from the SCH/SGE, and have the WHM instead use that Lily to heal up after'. Additionally, as I've mentioned before, giving every healer semi-reliable access to shields means that the Devs can know that there's a shield available in any comp, meaning 'shield check' mechanics can be created, which would test the healer on how well they are healing (something people ask for a lot). A debuff, for example, that can be blocked by fully mitigating the raidwide that applies it. Or a knockback like Vulcan Burst from Ifrit/Ifrit EX/Ifrit in UWU. They can even make a graphic element for it, like how interruptible casts flash red, this could pulse say, green (customizable in options for colorblind accessibility), and have a shield icon on the bar to indicate it needs to be shielded against

I don't think anyone here who has suggested changes to healing has only thought of Savage, the reason they put more emphasis on more damage options is because it doesn't affect the skill floor in casual content, so those players don't get affected all that much. Savage players are in fact the ones that would "lose out" because now they have to work harder for a higher parse, which is the point anyway, because the complaint is that they're frequently feeling unengaged with the content because they're spamming 1 button for 80% of a fight. I'm fine with increasing healing requirements, and want that even in casual content, but it can only go so high, the game was not built for WoW-styled triage.

If anyone reads my stuff and thinks 'oh they are only thinking of Savage, what about me, the downtrodden casual in the EX roulette', they didn't do a very good job of reading what I wrote. How can you look at what I put for SGE, for example, where every standard GCD, including Diagnosis and Prognosis, has zero MP cost, and think 'yep that's a change that is for the Savage crowd'?

A 1% difference is even worse, that's 0.175% of the dps check required, that's an absolute non-issue.

As I've said before, Crit Variance will kill your run harder than any design I or any other forum user comes up with, trying to boogeyman about 'this will cause damage disparity and lead to enrage wipes' just reveals that the person trying to boogeyman hasn't done the maths, or has and is wilfully ignoring what the maths says to push their point

The point you, myself, and many others here are missing is that it really has nothing to do with the average player's ability to clear. If we were to do something like Roe's White Mage rework, the problem is that someone who engages with the added tools of Banish and the like is going to be numerically better than someone who just wants to spam Glare, or do as much as White Mage currently does and nothing further, regardless of how that does or doesn't influence clear rates.

They want to be rewarded and told they're a good player, without putting in the effort to actually be a good player? Say it ain't so /s

edit:

protraction is the kind of button that isn't strong enough to be interesting, either needs a buff or needs gone. Thematically I like that it's mini thrill though.

Protraction would immediately go from 'whats the point' tier to 'this is great' IMO, by letting us Deploy it. Functionally, it'd then be functionally identical to a shield worth '10% of the target's HP', allowing us to do more mitigation OGCD (replacing a Succor cast at times). Alternatively, it'd allow for us to do Protraction > Adlo (boosted now) > Deploy, and deploy both the Adlo and the Protraction at once for even harder mit, which would allow us (at times) to remove another mit and use it elsewhere (eg maybe Illumination can be shifted to something else).

That'd be interactivity within a healer kit, though, and 'this requires thought to make best use of'. We know SE doesn't want that

[fulminating]

edit:

Protraction would immediately go from 'whats the point' tier to 'this is great' IMO, by letting us Deploy it. Functionally, it'd then be functionally identical to a shield worth '10% of the target's HP', allowing us to do more mitigation OGCD (replacing a Succor cast at times). Alternatively, it'd allow for us to do Protraction > Adlo (boosted now) > Deploy, and deploy both the Adlo and the Protraction at once for even harder mit, which would allow us (at times) to remove another mit and use it elsewhere (eg maybe Illumination can be shifted to something else).

That'd be interactivity within a healer kit, though, and 'this requires thought to make best use of'. We know SE doesn't want that

I like that idea, it might be interesting if they learn more into deploy/bane as what differentiates scholar and sage. Perhaps even to the point of deleting succour- although this would probably need an adjustment of sorts to compensate for the lost aoe hp restoration. On this train of thought, the reintroduction of eye for an eye could also be helpful, particularly if it wasn’t just used on cd on the tank. Magic type vengeance as an effect instead of damage down could alleviate it possibly? Just damage is a bit boring though and cd reduction procs might be detrimental if they don’t cull raid buff minutes.

[Aravell]

I like that idea, it might be interesting if they learn more into deploy/bane as what differentiates scholar and sage. Perhaps even to the point of deleting succour- although this would probably need an adjustment of sorts to compensate for the lost aoe hp restoration. On this train of thought, the reintroduction of eye for an eye could also be helpful, particularly if it wasn’t just used on cd on the tank. Magic type vengeance as an effect instead of damage down could alleviate it possibly? Just damage is a bit boring though and cd reduction procs might be detrimental if they don’t cull raid buff minutes.

I would advise against deleting Succor regardless. Without Succor, SCH loses stable AoE healing, which means if the other healer dies before a multiple hit stack mechanic, there's no feasible way to salvage the situation unless you burn every other tool available to you. ET Succor can also be a very valuable tool for recovery when your cohealer is dead.

[Renathras]

There is currently no job where playing poorly and playing well is at a 1% gap.

...and that's irrelevant since that's not the point here.

The point here is to have a compromise between the "we want more DPS buttons to hit in downtime" and the "we don't" crowds. The idea of a compromise would be to allow the latter to continue to play as they do now - without engaging with the "new" buttons - and still be able to do the things they do now. Two readily apparent ways to do this are (a) leaving at least one Healer Job as it is today so the players not wanting to engage with "more DPS buttons" can play that Job and not have to (4 Healers Model) or (b) to give the healers more complex DPS kits, but tune them to where not engaging with them has a very small performance gap so that the players continuing to play as they do today are not harmed in the transition (including doing high end content, which they can do today with the current kits).

This isn't about parsing - as I said before, I don't care about parsing.

It comes down to how something FEELS to play. Feels good or feels bad. Something people wanting more buttons don't seem to understand is an issue with the people not wanting more buttons that would feel the more buttons "feel bad".

It'd be one thing if we were talking about a totally new Job, or a brand new game in development. But we aren't. We're talking about an existing game, and existing Jobs, with existing kits that you want to change out from under people.

I've said it before - it was bad to change SCH and SMN out from under people. It would be just as bad to change WHM and etc out from under people without giving them recourse or compensation. Everyone agrees gutting SCH was bad because it took something from people that liked SB SCH. The contra position is just as valid, that bloating WHM (and the others) with extra damage buttons and then making people that don't engage with them suddenly "bad players" despite them not being "bad" right now would be just as bad. (Specifically WHM, since even as far back as SB, it's played more or less as it does now - did a deep dive on this once and can post that for you if you haven't seen it - and was actually improved going into ShB; and arguably SGE, considering...well, it's only ever been this way, though it's also new so "growing pain" changes can still be justified, especially with SCH still matching a lot of the kit if not perfectly the feel...)

We're not talking about other roles or other kits. We're talking about a compromise so that people who want to break with the status quo so they aren't bored get to do so without harming or impacting other players who do not want to break with the status quo and actually prefer maintaining it.

That is, you want something, but you have to give something to the side that is giving up something for your benefit. Equivalent Exchange. Especially when they're giving up a lot for your benefit and getting nothing in return - the people who like healers as they are right now are getting nothing from any of these proposals, even the 4 Healers Model robs them of 3 Healer Jobs. They're entirely losing out for your collective benefit and getting nothing for their trouble other than being called names for arguing that you not get EVERYthing from them.

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And no, "read your tooltips" is NOT how you get how to play Jobs. Tooltips, for example, do not say oGCD and GCD (they say "Ability" and "Weaponskill/Spell", but don't tell you what that means). They don't tell you how to optimize gauge use. They don't tell you much of anything other that combo chain connections. Again, there ARE a few exceptions to this - like SMN. The very Job that hardcore people hate with a passion.

I won't speak on this topic further, but "all you need to be optimal is to read your tooltips" has never been true. It's not even true of SMN (it wouldn't tell you to delay your Festers for your 2 min windows, for example).

.

I would wager some people here DO only think of Savage, but I'm not prosecuting that. I'm just pointing out that for changes that affect everyone, you must listen to everyone's viewpoints and use data that reflects all players. I was saying neither more nor less.

Why are people so up in arms about this?

Something I tend to think of when people ask this kind question, "Why does this matter to you?":

If it matters to them/you, why should it not matter to me (or anyone else)?

If it's negligible...then what's it matter if it's 1% or 3%? "10% is nothing" so then why not 1% since it's also nothing? Since the difference is so irrelevant, then it's irrelevant if it was as little as 1%, is it not?

selene returns

I've been curious about this; people suggest Selene returning would free up buttons on SCH by removing one. I've never understood how that's a saved button considering Summon Selene would be an additional button? Unless we're going to use SMN as a guide and have a Eos/Selene version of Gemshine, Astral Flow, and Precious Brilliance. Kind of like Eukrasia if it was a toggle? One might do Whispering Dawn, Fey Blessing, and ??? if Eos is out, while the button would instead do Fey Illumination, ????, and ????? if Selene was out instead? Is that the idea here?

My numbers indicate a 10% gap NOW.

What?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you compared NOW's "glare only" vs "glare and proper Dia and Misery use (2 and 1 time per minute, respectively".

That's not relevant since "the gameplay now" would be "Glare and proper Dia (every 30 sec) and Misery (1 per min) use". There's no gap between Glare + 2x Dia + Misery vs Glare + 2x Dia + Misery. They're the same thing. G+2D+M = G+2D+M. There's no gap there at all. No one is asking for Glarespam to = G+2D+M right now. The question is for someone playing as they do now (G+2D+M) to have a very small gap so that they aren't negatively impacted by the change, since the point of the change is for you to be "less bored", not to have "a skill gap"...riiiiight?

On the other hand, your idea would have a gap if one only used Glare + 2x Dia + Misery vs Glare + 4x Dia + Misery + Elements. A gap that is greater than 0. This is the relevant topic of discussion. Comparing that to "Glare only" isn't relevant, since we aren't talking about "Glare only" players. We're talking about "Glare + 2 Dia + Misery" players. (Also Assize, but you get the point.)

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As for what you want: That's dodging the question. I take it the answer is that you would prefer 3 change to none change, you just don't want to be on the record saying such for I suppose obvious reasons? But prove me wrong by answering the question straight.

The Devs do supposedly look at feedback, even things like this. Though what messages they get out of it...

As for the rest:

I pointed out what was different, and we don't have a "Blessing of the Elements" button, so clearly that's difference, as would be gauge optimization, which I've been told is a big deal (on WAR), so we can't ignore that, and it doesn't change the fact 0-100 gauges are boring and overused at this point, we don't need ANOTHER one in the game. I thought we opposed homogenization?

A lot of the button consolidation cases are different to different people. I never felt I "lost" Esuna...considering I still have Esuna. (Aside: I more felt I lost Leeches on SCH, since that played into the class identity as a Doctrine of Humors physician). Never felt I "lost" Shroud, considering I still have it (effectively) in Lucid.

Stoneskin is different because it was a spamable (no CD) ability replaced with an oGCD with a time gate. Assize is "button we use on CD". If we cut the CD in half and made it a GCD, it would still be "button we use on CD, but now we get to hit it more often". That is, you're replacing effectively a 40 sec CD button with a 15 sec CD button. Considering how little WHM gameplay revolves around weaving and you don't really powerweave Assize (if Assize was a GCD right now, you'd use it literally the same way you use it now), that's a negligible change, you're just getting a more frequent used CD. I think most people would take that as a win. And normalizing damage isn't hard; average it out and split it up across abilities. Even under your model, it's not like WHM has a ton of them so it wouldn't be hard to either spread them out evenly (weighted) to maintain ability damage in relation to each other OR alternatively just dump it all into Misery. The point being, balancing that is easy, that's not an excuse not to do it.

This also doesn't cover BoE which, as I said, you can just make PoM upgrade into and cut the CD to 60 sec, no silly gauge required. Why exactly would it not work? You still have the more varied stuff to do, so why is that insufficient...but some magical gauge that you have to try to shoehorn into a 2 min burst all the same is somehow better? What does that have to do with boredom?

Again, this is the part where my brain goes "why are we talking like DPS players?", because that's a very DPS thing to want/do.

As for Lily barrier: We already have Benison. We don't need YET ANOTHER button (when Solace and Rapture are borderline redundant AS IT IS) unless you're removing Benison. We already have button bloat, something you know I've argued before. Now, if you meant REPLACE Solace and Rapture, then we can have a conversation, but at that point, why keep Benison around? Just give us back Stoneskin (single target) and Protect (AOE, basically Stoneskin2 usable in combat) as GCDs, and do that thing where if you have a Lily, it makes them instant and cost no MP. Then remove Benison. We still end up around the same place this way in terms of numbers of buttons. That is, remove Solace, Rapture and Benison, add Stoneskin and Protect, make Stoneskin and Protect GCDs with an MP cost, and if you have a Lily, they instead are instant cast, consume no MP, and nourish the Blood Lily (and do this same thing with Cure 2 and Medica, making Solace and Rapture removable. Can even have the icon and spell animation change when you have a Lily).

I do agree - again, as you know and as I've said, despite you not acknowledging it - that removing the pure/barrier split is a good idea and one I agree with. Again, we've agreed on this point before, so I don't know why you're acting like we don't now. We just disagree on how to achieve it. I see it as doable using the existing buttons we have, you seem to think that we need "more buttons! some indeterminate amount of more!" when...we really don't.

Also note: Did you miss the part where I said "If you do this with these buttons, I'd agree with your idea"?

And it's not like what I'm asking is onerous or defeats the point of your suggestion. Assize into Water/Banish doesn't defeat it, since your suggestion doesn't even mention Assize, much less have its current form necessary in any way. Having PoM upgrade into BoE as a 60 sec CD to give you Quake/Tornado/Flood means you still have those extra abilities that you're using to get your dopamine hit from elemental spells and mixing up your animations; the only thing changed here is you aren't futzing with a gauge that is a curse on literally every Job that has one other than maybe RDM. AND, optimal play would still have the player trying to fit that to the 2 min meta/PoM usage anyway. It's sort of the "Does PLD really need Fight or Flight AND Requiescat as two separate buttons?" argument.

This is you not taking yes for an answer.

I'm not trying to be hardnosed on this, I just legitimately do not understand why that isn't an acceptable compromise. You're getting 4x Dias per min, you're getting a big CD burst every minute, you're getting the elemental spells you always say you want, you're getting an additional GCD several times a minute...I'm failing to see why this isn't acceptable?

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The rest I'm not responding to, namely the insult/goading jab at the end.

I would advise against deleting Succor regardless...

Agreed. I've seen people suggest taking things like Succor or Soil from SCH, and it's weird to me because those are iconic abilities. Yet people will die on the hill of Energy Drain for some reason, despite it being the most negligible and uninteresting thing in the Job. (Sure sure, people say optimizing it is a challenge, but the effect of it is nearly nonexistent while Succor and Soil are both visually apparent and can have major impacts on encounters and party survival, as well as being very clear and apparent examples of SCH's class fantasy of being a protective barrier healer. Of all the things to remove, I can't imagine why anyone would think removing those would be a good idea.)

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Annnnnd I'm just taking someone's advice and ignoring a certain someone now.

[Saraide]

I would wager some people here DO only think of Savage, but I'm not prosecuting that. I'm just pointing out that for changes that affect everyone, you must listen to everyone's viewpoints and use data that reflects all players. I was saying neither more nor less.

No, this is exactly the reason why so much in this thread is about damage complexity instead of healing complexity. Upping the healing requirement has a much much bigger risk of alienating bad healers than increasing the damage complexity. Changing the healing part affects everyone, changing the damage part does not. For the simple reason that every piece of content has heal checks but only higher end content has dps checks (i am aware of althyk). And in that situation if you wanted to still just spam your basic attack you could do that and not face any troubles.

[ForsakenRoe]

What?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you compared NOW's "glare only" vs "glare and proper Dia and Misery use (2 and 1 time per minute, respectively".

That's not relevant since "the gameplay now" would be "Glare and proper Dia (every 30 sec) and Misery (1 per min) use". There's no gap between Glare + 2x Dia + Misery vs Glare + 2x Dia + Misery. They're the same thing. G+2D+M = G+2D+M. There's no gap there at all. No one is asking for Glarespam to = G+2D+M right now. The question is for someone playing as they do now (G+2D+M) to have a very small gap so that they aren't negatively impacted by the change, since the point of the change is for you to be "less bored", not to have "a skill gap"...riiiiight?

On the other hand, your idea would have a gap if one only used Glare + 2x Dia + Misery vs Glare + 4x Dia + Misery + Elements. A gap that is greater than 0. This is the relevant topic of discussion. Comparing that to "Glare only" isn't relevant, since we aren't talking about "Glare only" players. We're talking about "Glare + 2 Dia + Misery" players. (Also Assize, but you get the point.)


As for what you want: That's dodging the question. I take it the answer is that you would prefer 3 change to none change, you just don't want to be on the record saying such for I suppose obvious reasons? But prove me wrong by answering the question straight.

I pointed out what was different, and we don't have a "Blessing of the Elements" button, so clearly that's difference, as would be gauge optimization, which I've been told is a big deal (on WAR), so we can't ignore that, and it doesn't change the fact 0-100 gauges are boring and overused at this point, we don't need ANOTHER one in the game. I thought we opposed homogenization?

A lot of the button consolidation cases are different to different people. I never felt I "lost" Esuna...considering I still have Esuna. (Aside: I more felt I lost Leeches on SCH, since that played into the class identity as a Doctrine of Humors physician). Never felt I "lost" Shroud, considering I still have it (effectively) in Lucid.

Considering how little WHM gameplay revolves around weaving and you don't really powerweave Assize

This also doesn't cover BoE which, as I said, you can just make PoM upgrade into and cut the CD to 60 sec, no silly gauge required. Why exactly would it not work? You still have the more varied stuff to do, so why is that insufficient...but some magical gauge that you have to try to shoehorn into a 2 min burst all the same is somehow better? What does that have to do with boredom?

As for Lily barrier: We already have Benison. We don't need YET ANOTHER button (when Solace and Rapture are borderline redundant AS IT IS) unless you're removing Benison.

I see it as doable using the existing buttons we have, you seem to think that we need "more buttons! some indeterminate amount of more!" when...we really don't.

the only thing changed here is you aren't futzing with a gauge that is a curse on literally every Job that has one other than maybe RDM.

You're getting 4x Dias per min, you're getting a big CD burst every minute, you're getting the elemental spells you always say you want, you're getting an additional GCD several times a minute...I'm failing to see why this isn't acceptable?

- You don't even know what you're arguing against, and this kinda shows it. The two 90% effectiveness ratings were derived from 'Glarespam now, vs Glares and optimal Dia refresh timings (2x)', on a dummy situation. Misery was not included because it is equal to the Glares it costs. By comparison, the 90.7%, from my design, was 'Glarespam, vs 15 Glares, 5 Dias, 4 Banishes', again ignoring Misery, or Blessing and it's refunds, because they're damage neutral and wouldn't be used on a dummy. The reason I used 'Glarespam with zero DOT uses' for both, is because my DOT would be 12s, and does not divide correctly into the 30s of the current game. It is easier to do a comparison between 'best case' and 'worst case', instead of some weird halfway point like 'in current game, player uses the DOT once (30s), whereas in Samantha-land, the player uses the DOT 2 times (24s)' because that'd cause irregularities due to the missed ticks, and paint a distorted picture. Also, It's 5 Dia's per minute with my design, not 4. If you want to compare someone who uses EXACTLY the current rotation, that is, 22 Glares and 2 Dias per minute (again ignoring Misery), then it'd be 7,680p per minute, which is 86.7% of 'fully optimal Samantha-design'. No doubt this 'proves' that the design is flawed and will cause enrages for years to come (spoilers, it doesn't, the game's built with some leeway in mind, me and my '31 Succors first-clear of P11S' are testament to that)

- Sod your record. I would prefer to have all four healers change, and have room for a player to express their skillset on them, than for three/two/one/zero of them to change. I believe that leaving any healer in the state it is in, is a grave mistake, and a failure of game design principles. If SE changes 'less than all four' and leaves any to rot, that is their decision and I'll play one of the ones that didn't get left to stagnate. You will not catch me saying the exact line you want me to say, because I don't trust it to be quoted with full context. I also don't believe it, so why would I say it? If SE decides to do only three for whatever reason, it's entirely up to them and nothing any of us say will change anything. However, I believe that WHM getting left to rot, while the other three get improved, would cause a SB level exclusion from PF, which is why I insist on all four. Not to deprive you of your job (as the maths shows, your Ninja's Hyosho Dhit Critting vs not is about the same potency loss as 'purposely using only 2 Dias per minute instead of the possible 5'), but because I don't particularly feel like seeing SB's WHM exclusion again. So I expect SE will either change all four, or more likely, change none of them. God I hope the AST rework doesn't suck, but chances are it will be even more WHMlike.

- Name a Healer that has a 0-100 gauge that is built by using damage or healing GCDs, and spends 50 on a damage-neutral heal. Homogenization only applies if the two 'homogenized things' are in the same category. Since one's a healer (WHM) and one's a tank (WAR), it's a nonsense comparison to make, and it makes you look like you're grasping at straws. Is it 'homogenization' for RPR to have it's Enshroud mechanic because it works 'kinda similarly to MCH'? Or DNC and WAR because they both spend 50 gauge on 'big hit' (Saber Dance/Fell Cleave)? Should we delete everything until we have exactly one of each design element? Goodbye every melee then, sorry but DRG was the first to have 1-2-3 combos, so NIN/SAM/RPR/MCH/All four tanks have to go byebye. Cancel Viper too

- Lucky you, that you don't 'feel you lost anything'. I remember the discourse back then, of how much was removed from WHM and repackaged back to them. From the job guide at the time:
* The following actions were removed with the release of patch 4.0: Cleric Stance, Protect, Esuna, Stoneskin, Shroud of Saints, Divine Seal, Stoneskin II.
And so WHM had to spend 4 of it's 5 Role slots at the time, buying back things it already HAD in HW!

- I've played this game for 8 years. What the hell is a powerweave

- You are so desperate to shoehorn in 'no additional buttons on hotbar' that you sand off all the details. The reason it is not a 60s CD that replaces POM is because then it'd be a 60s CD that replaces POM. Replacing one button with another CAN work, but WHM is so barebones in systems compared to say AST, that it can afford to have things just 'added'. You're asking for something akin to 'hey what if we added Primal Rend, but remove Onslaught'. They're both gapclosers, so it's fine, right? Making the ability a 60s CD that empowers your spells would 'function', but it'd be lame as hell. Because, it's a 60s CD. You'd just use it on CD, with little to no deviation, or creativity in when and where to use it. As a damage neutral heal, it has versatility, it can be shifted around to better line up with raidbuffs, juggling it AND Lilies so that you go into raidbuffs with Misery AND two stacks of Quake/Flood/Tornado would be the optimization game that people seek in the class. And because it's 'damage neutral'. The gain is absolutely miniscule, such that you'd never notice it unless you were parsing. And you don't care about parsing or percentages, so it won't affect you. So there's no issue, and you just want to argue for the sake of it, or because you can't accept you were wrong about the maths

- Again, we don't need to 'remove' things from the class with the least buttons already. YOU might want every class to conform to a total button count of 32. SE clearly doesn't care about that. I'll go with SE's ruling on it over yours, but I also would consolidate things that can be consolidated. So I'd only add two buttons technically, those being the shield Lily spenders. Without those, I'm button-neutral so I don't want to hear about it.

- Re-read things. The 'indeterminate amount' is either 0 (if shield Lily spenders are NOT added), or 2 (if they are added). It's an extremely determinate amount and has been for the better part of a year. There was a time when it'd have been 3 (by adding Cleric Stance as a 60s CD) but I don't care enough about it to keep bringing it up, so 2 or 0 it is.

- DRG Gauge is a curse? I kinda prefer it over 'looking at my buff bar to see if I have BOTD timer spare'. NIN's Huton gauge is a curse? Again, I'd rather look at it than the buff for Huton that jumps all over the place when shields and raidbuffs get applied. I can't imagine half of the jobs we have now without a gauge. What the hell would BLM do without it's gauge? What would BRD? The reason I'd add this element to WHM's gauge is simply: It barely HAS a gauge right now. It's a very pretty over-decorated graphic that tells you 'Solace/Rapture have 3 shared Charges, here is how many you have' and the Misery counter. This could all be done without a gauge at all, by just having 'Blood Lily Blooming' as a buff with no timer, and at 3 stacks you can execute Misery. The WHM Gauge is so hollow at the moment, it could do with what I suggested just to get it up to the level the other healers are at. SCH has two elements (AF/Fairy), SGE has two (Addersgall/sting), AST has... a lot going on (Major/Minor/Seals for Astrodyne). WHM's uniquely 'empty'

- Again, it's 5 Dia's a minute. It's hard to take what you say seriously when you can't even get the details of what you're arguing against right. But for the other stuff, I don't want a big CD burst every minute. We have Misery for that. You have taken what I asked for, a gauge that charges a powerful GCD heal, and turned it into 'what if it was a 2min meta conforming damage CD?'. If you cannot understand why anyone would find that unacceptable, I'm not sure we're playing the same game. The two things (GCD heal/60s damage steroid) have like, one thing in common: that they'd be a button on your hotbar that you press. Also, if it's a damage CD that you press every 60s, you introduce the potential for someone to drift it, losing them damage for the rest of the fight, and potentially even more if that loses them a use. Oh, and both WOW and FF have the same issue on the last point: A GCD that doesn't do anything directly feels awful to press. I've seen complaints about how bad Bahamut feels to summon, because he doesn't do anything for that GCD. It is a 'dead button', only there to activate the 'actual damage' buttons. OGCDs prevent this feeling somewhat, as they don't cause 'dead air' in the rotation. IDK why Bahamut can't do one Akh Morn on summon, and a second when enkindled (same damage, but the summon button has damage attached to make it feel better)

tl;dr you missed the point of why I made design decisions I did to such an extent, it's almost impressive

[Aravell]

Something I tend to think of when people ask this kind question, "Why does this matter to you?":

If it matters to them/you, why should it not matter to me (or anyone else)?

You're missing the point by a mile again. I do not care whether or not this matters to you or anyone else, I am pointing out the fact that the damage loss from 10% shaved off filler spam is so negligible that anyone that tries to blame a healer for an enrage will look like an absolute tool. I am pointing out that "players will no longer be able to meet enrage by playing as they are now" is an extremely flawed argument.

Also, I don't know what world you live in where people who do 80%-90% of their total output is considered a bad player, but whatever. I will just say I completely disagree that a 1% difference is enough, I think effort should be rewarded and people who don't put in the effort should be nowhere close to optimal, I don't care if it makes someone feel bad. I felt bad too back when I just picked up healer and couldn't heal big pulls, I just practiced and got better, others can do the same if they choose to.

Everytime it's being pushed that people want to feel good about doing the best and any skill ceiling would be bad for them, I start to believe Ty more and more that this is about the funny coloured numbers on the numbers website, there's really no other reason to care if you're having fun.

[fulminating]

I've been curious about this; people suggest Selene returning would free up buttons on SCH by removing one. I've never understood how that's a saved button considering Summon Selene would be an additional button? Unless we're going to use SMN as a guide and have a Eos/Selene version of Gemshine, Astral Flow, and Precious Brilliance. Kind of like Eukrasia if it was a toggle? One might do Whispering Dawn, Fey Blessing, and ??? if Eos is out, while the button would instead do Fey Illumination, ????, and ????? if Selene was out instead? Is that the idea here?

something along those lines. I just think it's beyond stupid that scholar has an introductory cutscene saying that not only is there a difference between eos and selene, but selene exists. It wasn't even removed for anything, just randomly in the middle of the expansion for no reason. Again it's the issue of SE seemingly being unable to bother giving something a rework and instead the bathwater out with the baby.