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  1. #131
    Player
    SannaR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    3,320
    Character
    Sanna Rosewood
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Sebazy View Post
    It really does depend on the mentality of the player.

    In my main static from Midas to this day pretty much all of us were only really inflexible as so far as we wanted to stick within our preferred role. Outside of that, we'd just play whatever job within the role was needed for that Savage turn/tier. Heck, 3 of us would literally play just about anything as long as you gave enough notice or threw a set of crafted their way in time for prog.

    In my eyes at least, players tend to be less likely to be as flexible as you move further from the hardcore extremes? Or at least it's a trend I've noticed when pugging or helping more midcore/casual teams over the years. In this case, a job being out of the meta isn't such a big deal no? Case in point, WHM was absolutely sub par for A12S and people made a big deal of that even occasionally going as far as excluding it from Zurvan PFs, yet ironically it was perfectly fine there and in the case of low level play could actually be easier to hit a decent standard with.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to suggest that 3.0 AST was a good thing by any stretch, rather I'm of the opinion that the WHM vs AST balance in Midas was something that SE would do well to explore. Both had advantages over each other depending on which turn you were tackling at the time and for that tier I actually ended up flip flopping between the two over the course of the night.

    Tanks have had similar situations over the years too.
    And Wesk talks about all of that. Yet you'd think he was talking out of his ass or that stuff like excluding jobs didn't happen back then at all levels if you read some people's replies in this thread. And sure some people might have loved those systems and the jank. As there are some crafters who feel HW crafting was when it was at its peak and wished it would go back to that sort of thing. I remember getting my miner to 60 and wondering how in world was I supposed to get the needed amount of HQ Adamantite or for the lv 60 minner quest as I wasn't an established crafter. I also didn't understand how gathering back then worked and asking anyone got me silence. Still does today thb. I might not have been raiding back then but oh man was it very much not fun hearing a person stuck on A3S try to prog that fight for almost the entire time it was current. Or to hear the complaints from fellow FC mates.

    Again sure it feels nice if your job feels like it has its own identity. But I don't know where the sweet spot is or even if there is one to where people don't have to gear up another job and prog on that job only to get "leftover scraps(the gear no one else wanted cause it wasn't their main)" for their main. To then only touch it on reclears cause everyone's gear is so good it doesn't matter if you took an unfavorable job. And having a fairly balanced or very balanced difference between the jobs.
    (3)

  2. #132
    Player
    SieyaM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,189
    Character
    Sieya Mizuno
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 100
    Jobs should be interesting enough that people will want to play as them. I feel that if people are so ready and willing to change jobs just because meta or whatever demands it, then it means the jobs aren't all that interesting and people aren't playing them because they like them but just because it suits their needs at the time.
    (7)

  3. #133
    Player
    Turtledeluxe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2023
    Posts
    1,267
    Character
    Kinda Hungry
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur View Post
    I want to believe you but Ive heard this account of terrible job balance by many other veterans who played Heavensward back in the day to believe that was to the case.

    Unless you're going to tell me all of those other players where lying?
    That isn't what my post says. I clearly said Heavensward is not ideal however the game has been rendered mediocre by listening to players who claimed their jobs weren't viable at all when in reality they were just suboptimal either because that player sucked and lacked self awareness or bc their class wasn't demanding every single type of encounter.

    Also regarding believing him-- do you seriously believe no one was taking warriors to raids
    ? People take RDM to raids today. They take all classes aa they always have because again all classes are viable for all encounters the vast majority of the time, and we should not adjust jobs based on a minority of cases (ie waH it's harder to clear this dps check bc of my job).
    (5)
    Last edited by Turtledeluxe; 11-15-2023 at 10:46 AM.

  4. #134
    Player
    SannaR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    3,320
    Character
    Sanna Rosewood
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    People really did not take WAR, PLD, MNK, MCH, SAM, WHM and DRK at different parts of this game's life. To the point where people did so without knowing why a group would not want to even in content where excluding them wouldn't have mattered. Yet look at people in PF 6 weeks after a savage tier comes oit and the fact they'd have dumb restrictions on them like the stupid high ilvs. That would prevent people who knew what they were doing to join just cause they were joining on a job that wasn't as geared as their main. Look at the whole skip Soar meme. People wanted to skip it because it was too hard even though later in the fight you still had to do a Soar. There would be people who wouldn't look at a MCH's numbers and just kick em from a PF group cause lol MCH ping is bad and there were a lot of bad MCH. Or if they did take a great MCH and a wipe happened they'd kick em then assuming it had to be the person playing the "crap" job.
    (2)

  5. #135
    Player
    Turtledeluxe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2023
    Posts
    1,267
    Character
    Kinda Hungry
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by SannaR View Post
    People really did not take WAR, PLD, MNK, MCH, SAM, WHM and DRK at different parts of this game's life. To the point where people did so without knowing why a group would not want to even in content where excluding them wouldn't have mattered. Yet look at people in PF 6 weeks after a savage tier comes oit and the fact they'd have dumb restrictions on them like the stupid high ilvs. That would prevent people who knew what they were doing to join just cause they were joining on a job that wasn't as geared as their main. Look at the whole skip Soar meme. People wanted to skip it because it was too hard even though later in the fight you still had to do a Soar. There would be people who wouldn't look at a MCH's numbers and just kick em from a PF group cause lol MCH ping is bad and there were a lot of bad MCH. Or if they did take a great MCH and a wipe happened they'd kick em then assuming it had to be the person playing the "crap" job.
    Yes and those are isolated and extreme cases that literally don't neccesitate the vast oversimplification and homogenization that has occurred.

    And per your notes about MCH, that's players. That isn't FFXiV-- it's players. Devs are in a perpetual cycle of homogenizing and simplifying when players are always going to make assumptions and create metas. It is a battle they will never win and they should stop now, reverse direction. Accept that not every job will be meta or loved by everyone and stick to their own creative vision.
    (10)
    Last edited by Turtledeluxe; 11-15-2023 at 01:42 PM.

  6. #136
    Player
    Fawkes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,730
    Character
    Fawkes Macleod
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ThaCa View Post
    Endwalker was great, post patches have been hit or miss.
    It does bug me that people seem to say the expansion name to mean the patches too nowadays.
    (2)

  7. #137
    Player
    SannaR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    3,320
    Character
    Sanna Rosewood
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe View Post
    Yes and those are isolated and extreme cases that literally don't neccesitate the vast oversimplification and homogenization that has occurred.

    And per your notes about MCH, that's players. That isn't FFXiV-- it's players. Devs are in a perpetual cycle of homogenizing and simplifying when players are always going to make assumptions and create metas. It is a battle they will never win and they should stop now, reverse direction. Accept that not every job will be meta or loved by everyone and stick to their own creative vision.
    It wasn't isolated and extreme cases and sure it is all on the playerbase. Yet no one wanted a PLD or MNK for most of HW. At least not while you were progging a fight. Same thing happened at other points in the game. The homogenization of jobs came from people complaining for years to balance the jobs so that you wouldn't run into the problem we created of not being able to do a fight on the job you main. Now does that mean that jobs might not feel like themselves? Yeah. Which even I don't like. I don't think that we should go all the way back cause even back then there were some dumb things the devs thought we liked.
    (1)

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