[Discussion and Feedback] Incoming damage vs. Utility

[mallleable]

I mentioned this in the 'boring dps rotations for healers' thread, but I wonder what it would be like if when a boss does an attack that also applies damage over time, that mitigation buffs/debuff no longer affect the damage over time component placing more responsibility on the healers. Overall I do think that mitigation buffs/debuffs are bit too strong/prevalent.

[Oizen]

I mentioned this in the 'boring dps rotations for healers' thread, but I wonder what it would be like if when a boss does an attack that also applies damage over time, that mitigation buffs/debuff no longer affect the damage over time component placing more responsibility on the healers. Overall I do think that mitigation buffs/debuffs are bit too strong/prevalent.

Problem with that is tools like Shake it Off + Overtime, Veil still exist and still deal with that in a pretty effective way.
I think all that would do is further unbalance the game by making Shield HP and Regen significantly better than mitigation. Jobs like GNB and DRK would suffer for it as they dont have equivlants to it.

Personally I think the issue is more of fight design, way back when fights used to have a lot more depth to them in terms of managing outgoing damage onto the tanks.
Thordan UR is a good example of this, his Auto attacks are scarier than almost every savage fight you'll find this tier baring P8SP2's double tank buster auto gimmick.

Now fights are less about mitigating damage and restoring health, rather they're wipe or fail fights with a heavy focus on body checks, the actual daamge outgoing isn't as high as it used to be.
Because of this tools like Shake it Off's Regen, Nascent Flash, Veil,Intervention (ect) end up being enough to get people back up to max, and ready for the next mandantory raidwide damage.

Its not that these jobs are out healing healers, its that fights don't really demand all that much from healers outside of key moments, and we're tetering on the edge of powercreep where tools that heal less like the tank moves I listed earler are becoming enough to cover that. Theres a reason all the big contents cleared healer-less were stacking up on PLD and WAR, some even doubling on both.

[RitsukoSonoda]

I mentioned this in the 'boring dps rotations for healers' thread, but I wonder what it would be like if when a boss does an attack that also applies damage over time, that mitigation buffs/debuff no longer affect the damage over time component placing more responsibility on the healers. Overall I do think that mitigation buffs/debuffs are bit too strong/prevalent.

Cloud of Darkness actually applies a DoT to the tank with it's basic attacks. This seems to cause the majority of tank deaths I see during that fight since shield mitigation is limited at that lvl range and normal mitigation doesn't help with it. So if the healers lapse in paying attention the person tanking hits the floor due to being punched and DoT tic'ed at the same time.

[Jeeqbit]

Cloud of Darkness actually applies a DoT to the tank with it's basic attacks. This seems to cause the majority of tank deaths I see during that fight since shield mitigation is limited at that lvl range and normal mitigation doesn't help with it. So if the healers lapse in paying attention the person tanking hits the floor due to being punched and DoT tic'ed at the same time.

When I've done the alliance raid minimum item level, we actually had to do tank swaps for it. I vaguely remember this happening when I did it back in ARR or Heavensward too.

[RitsukoSonoda]

When I've done the alliance raid minimum item level, we actually had to do tank swaps for it. I vaguely remember this happening when I did it back in ARR or Heavensward too.

Swapping was one way to deal with it. Trials back then also created a necessity for tank swapping as well due to stacking debuffs generated by the boss.

[Absurdity]

Swapping was one way to deal with it. Trials back then also created a necessity for tank swapping as well due to stacking debuffs generated by the boss.

Not just trials back then. I remember tank swapping simply because my co-tank still had all their defensives, and I would've had to either swap to Defiance or pray, as late as Stormblood.

It was really only with Shadowbringers that this started to shift heavily. Bosses started doing so little tank damage and busters were so spaced out that the "main" tank could cover every attack with just their own cooldowns.
Which is why a lot of bosses nowadays either give a vuln up debuff to force a swap or put a buster on both tanks, because otherwise the "off" tank would just be sitting on their defensives the entire fight.

[RitsukoSonoda]

Not just trials back then. I remember tank swapping simply because my co-tank still had all their defensives, and I would've had to either swap to Defiance or pray, as late as Stormblood.

It was really only with Shadowbringers that this started to shift heavily. Bosses started doing so little tank damage and busters were so spaced out that the "main" tank could cover every attack with just their own cooldowns.
Which is why a lot of bosses nowadays either give a vuln up debuff to force a swap or put a buster on both tanks, because otherwise the "off" tank would just be sitting on their defensives the entire fight.

IMO the overall gameplay was far more engaging back then. Tank stance wasn't just an aggro on/off button, positioning mattered because various trash mobs and bosses had instant AoE or splash attacks, Knowing the proper time and place to use things like cleric stance or blood for blood (which many DRG never figured out hence the floor tank meme), Many bosses had more involved mechanics, some duties and boss fights had environmental mechanics, etc...

Duties weren't as much of a homogenized cookie cutter like they are now where every enemy and boss now declares and telegraphs it's special attacks 10 seconds before actually doing them.

[Zairava]

I mentioned this in the 'boring dps rotations for healers' thread, but I wonder what it would be like if when a boss does an attack that also applies damage over time, that mitigation buffs/debuff no longer affect the damage over time component placing more responsibility on the healers. Overall I do think that mitigation buffs/debuffs are bit too strong/prevalent.

This is also a good point, regarding bleeds (or DoT in general), more bosses could use that imo. Doing that while reducing how potent our party mit(or debuffs) could serve to make healers more engaged with healing GCDs..maybe. Depends on the tuning.


Regarding the topic of tank swaps, not to derail the subject of the OP, but I do wish we had to tank swap more in normal mode content..I have fond memories of learning to do that via Ex-death back in Deltascape as a New player.

[Jeeqbit]

This is also a good point, regarding bleeds (or DoT in general), more bosses could use that imo. Doing that while reducing how potent our party mit(or debuffs) could serve to make healers more engaged with healing GCDs..maybe. Depends on the tuning.

They did do that with Abyssos Savage at least so there is some evidence of what happens there.

Regarding the topic of tank swaps, not to derail the subject of the OP, but I do wish we had to tank swap more in normal mode content..I have fond memories of learning to do that via Ex-death back in Deltascape as a New player.

That was never actually necessary, but a lot of tanks did it anyway. PLDs could simply use Cover to take one of them. Tanks were meant to stack together in Deltascape 1 as well, but nobody remembers that now.

It continued in Shadowbringers. E4 normal has a vulnerability that you get from the tank buster and at minimum item level it is rough, but overall, not impossible to survive if you don't swap. Same happens in E10 normal and people did try to swap there but it was not required on release if you were good at tanking.

We could go backwards instead and look at alex, which has A6 with the cuff mechanic, which was particularly rough if there weren't swaps either for the TBs or when vuln stacks got high which continued into the next boss, but I do remember finding ways to get through the fights if I used my cooldowns well and had good healers. There was also A7 where people used to swap because the vulns made it rough, but once again this wasn't absolutely essential. There was also A8, where you stack with the other tank for the double tank buster, but using the power of tank mitigation you can make up for the lack of a co-tank. Oh A5 also had that big boss attack that applies vulns then hits hard if you don't swap, but this one you could prepare for by combining lots of mits ahead of the stun. Overall this was the tier where it probably mattered most in normal content.

The point here is most of these normal mode swaps only slightly matter at minimum item level and at release people are not usually minimum item level anyway. But that takes us to the discussion of how story content is designed for a minimum item level that is far below what any active player that does more than just MSQ would have.