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  1. #1
    Player
    LilimoLimomo's Avatar
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    Lilimo Limomo
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    Black Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDustyOne View Post
    That seems incredibly unfair then to Scholars who used to have a lot more DPS skills. Now if they ask for those back, suddenly they're asking for "triple the amount they currently have". If SCH never lost those, would you suddenly be okay with them having another DPS skill?
    That's a fair point! And in my opinion, I do think there should be more disparity between classes. If half the healers given a more involved damage rotation to keep their thumbs busy, I think that would be fine. I just don't agree with a solution that gives that to everyone, because not everyone wants that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDustyOne View Post
    And if it's okay for Scholars to have extra attacks in that scenario, why is WHM and AST suddenly not allowed to have that?
    Because many healers don't want this functionality, so I oppose it becoming a universal feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDustyOne View Post
    Tanks are also about 50/50 in DPS/defensives, the ratio is a lot higher than you realise.
    I'm talking about gameplay, not just counting the buttons. Frequency of using defensive parts of the kit are meaningfully lower compared to the DPS parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDustyOne View Post
    Aggro wasn't all that meaningful when it was there beyond the opener or someone forgetting Diversion, so it's loss wasn't felt all that painfully for most tanks.
    I'll agree that I don't think tanking reached its potential, but aggro was something, replaced with nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDustyOne View Post
    DPSing as healers is ultimately going to be necessary no matter how much healing is required, and the lax healing requirements in casual content means that someone doing that with a modicum of skill behind them is going to get bored quickly. The solution is to make the downtime engaging in some way rather than forcing savage-level healing on the healer who can't keep up with that. DPS is the obvious answer because it is always useful, and buffs are just indirect DPS.
    I've addressed this earlier in the thread so I will respectfully acknowledge your thoughts. If you'd like to see mine they're earlier in the thread, but no pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDustyOne View Post
    Also healers having mechanical identity... SCH and SGE say otherwise. The two are so close in design that I have the same buttons on the same places on my hotbar. Tanks have a similar issue, especially between WAR and DRK, but you don't see nearly as many people complaining about those 2 compared to the healers.
    I meant that healers overall have a mechanical identity, not the individual roles. Because I agree: healers blur together and overlap too much. And I also agree that tanks have the same problem, which I have complained about numerous times on these forums ^^.
    (1)

  2. #2
    Player
    TheDustyOne's Avatar
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    Dusty Two
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    Red Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo View Post
    That's a fair point! And in my opinion, I do think there should be more disparity between classes. If half the healers given a more involved damage rotation to keep their thumbs busy, I think that would be fine. I just don't agree with a solution that gives that to everyone, because not everyone wants that.
    While I do sympathize with someone that wants a simple kit, a single nuke + DoT is not a good kit. Warrior is a good example of a simple kit and that's what WHM should try to match in complexity.

    Quote Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo View Post
    Because many healers don't want this functionality, so I oppose it becoming a universal feature.
    Ty I believe had a survey that asked jobs what they wanted most. 70+% Healers outside AST wanted more DPS buttons, which instead wanted more damage buffs. That last one is ultimately what would better suit those players.

    Quote Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo View Post
    I'm talking about gameplay, not just counting the buttons. Frequency of using defensive parts of the kit are meaningfully lower compared to the DPS parts.
    The gameplay is down to the fight design. We need more incoming busters and raidwides for the tank defensives to be more in play, which also in turn makes the healers more integral. It's a fight design issue, not a kit issue. But otherwise I agree there.

    Quote Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo View Post
    I'll agree that I don't think tanking reached its potential, but aggro was something, replaced with nothing.
    I don't disagree honestly, I wouldn't mind aggro returning, but it would have to be rebalanced to where it becomes an integral part of tanking instead of opener only.

    Quote Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo View Post
    I've addressed this earlier in the thread so I will respectfully acknowledge your thoughts. If you'd like to see mine they're earlier in the thread, but no pressure.
    A lot of others have already said what I wanted to say, so I'm not too worried about responding to what you said earlier because I think it'd just be a repeat of other sentiments.

    Quote Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo View Post
    I meant that healers overall have a mechanical identity, not the individual roles. Because I agree: healers blur together and overlap too much. And I also agree that tanks have the same problem, which I have complained about numerous times on these forums ^^.
    I can agree at least. I've had suggestions in the past on how to diversify healer kits on the healer forums. I liked the idea of AST going full time mage and fast-forwarding regens, snapshotting buffs to reapply them after they expire, etc.
    (1)

  3. #3
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
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    Ren Thras
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    Famfrit
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    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull View Post
    Actually lmao. Why should the opinion of someone who literally doesn't understand what they're talking about carry any weight?
    Because you're talking about changes that affect them. If you're talking about things that affect people, they get a say.

    Not to mention people have a lot of reasons for doing or not doing content. People without statics tend not to enjoy doing Extremes/Savages, or have to be a lot more cautious with heals to make up for mistakes, which leads to lower parses. ilevel difference between a person in full Savage and a person without also make a difference.

    Lodestone doesn't, in fact, give you that information.

    But regardless, people can understand the problems extensively without having a orange parse ultimate clear, and any proposed changes would affect us all.

    It's not like asking someone who can't cook for a recipe.

    It's like asking your friends what everyone wants for your pizza, and then telling ONE friend "You aren't a cook so you don't get a say. You can't cook a pizza, so you CLEARLY shouldn't be voicing what you do and don't want on our pizza."

    Quote Originally Posted by Lailani_Fey View Post
    ...
    Great posts all around, thank you for voicing them!

    Quote Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas View Post
    First of all, there are a number of threads on this, to date, the overwhelming majority have not requested "complex damage rotations" for healers.
    I think part of the disconnect is how subjective this is. No one is saying "I want SUPER ULTRA COMPLEX damage rotations for healers!", but people are often proposing things that ARE complex.

    SOME ARE NOT. This is true. My SCH proposal (though I'm not in the pro-DPS camp), my WHM "Holy Might" proposal, and one of...Roe, maybe?...proposals were not. But a lot of the other proposals are rather involved.

    It makes sense, with 4 healer Jobs, that we have one with a complex damage kit. But not doing so with all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizzi View Post
    Here is their satisfactory solution: Go play another game...
    If this isn't a satisfactory answer for those bored with healing, then it isn't for those who would dislike more DPS buttons. It's also...kind of rude. The answer to people disagreeing with you is pretty much never "just leave then". That's arrogant gatekeeping, not good faith discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ty_taurus View Post
    I just can't stand this double standard where no one yells at a Warrior asking for a new attack to spend Beast Gauge on, but a healer asks for another attack and it's "I play healer to HEAL. If I wanted to DPS, I'd play a DPS" Bet. I play tank to TANK! If I wanted to DPS, I'd play DPS.
    WAR damage generates threat generates tanking. SOME of their damage even generates sustain which is also tanking.

    The only healer damage that generates healing is Kardia.

    Besides, there are plenty of WAR players that argue over proposed changes when they are proposed - for the most part, WARs seem to like their present state of affairs, so...this is a poor example. There ARE, in fact, a LOT of Tank players that want tanking to be focused on tanking and not damage dealing, with more abilities and boss/encounter design around positioning and facing the boss, add management, etc, and abilities that contribute to those objectives. One reason for the GNB Continuation range change was because of Tanks complaining they were having to choose between damage dealing and positioning the boss - the thing even now Tank players consider one of the main components of tanking.

    The closest parallel here is probably that. Healers doing damage IS NOT healing. No, shaving a few seconds off an encounter is not "mitigation" from foregone damage. That's always been a stupid argument and always will be unless your damage contribution is significantly changing the encounter timetable. The only other time it matters is Enrage if your DPSers are doing a bad Job of being DPSers, which is a different problem as it is, but also isn't "mitigation".

    Quote Originally Posted by ty_taurus View Post
    All I'm hearing are excuses. So basically, there is no good reason for tanks to continue getting more and more DPS variety while healers don't...
    Just out of curiosity...how much "DPS variety" have Tanks gotten the last expansion or two? PLD's major rework aside:

    ShB:
    PLD got Atonement and...Confetior? They had a bit of a mini-rework but basically you lost Halone combo (and the second -2 branch combo) and gained Atonement and once per minute would Confetti into Holy Spirit spam...which was already a thing from SB. Oh, and a Gap Closer, finally?
    WAR, after having been reworked (in 4.2, was it?) got...what? Infuriate reskins of existing buttons? Oh, they got Nacent...but that wasn't a DPS action.
    DRK you tell me, don't play it.
    GNB got introduced, so we'll table this one for now.

    EW:
    PLD prior to the rework stopped hitting Holy Spirit after Confetti and instead hit the Confetti button 3 more times then skipped a Goring to go straight into a Royal combo. It gained a Shelltron upgrade and a Spirits Within reskin.
    WAR got an AOE Upheaval (which shares a CD with Upheaval, so they could have just made it an upgrade with falloff like Expiacion for PLD was), and Primal Rend, which is a button to hit after Inner Release but BEFORE you start the Fell Cleave spam...which didn't change.
    DRK same as above, but people were not complaining more.
    GNB got an extra gauge, which was immediately consumed by Double Down. They could have just made DD cost one gauge and not bothered with the gauge expansion. Otherwise, Gnashing Fang's combo was reduced to a single button, Burst Strike finally got a Continuation (no new button and existing mechanic), and Heart of Stone got an upgrade and Aurora a second charge. But Heart of Corundum and Aurora aren't damage buttons, and Continuation isn't a new damage button, so in practice, the only thing they got was Double Down...which honestly could have just been an upgrade of Sonic Blade and nothing would really have changed.

    So...where is all this new and exciting "DPS variety"? For the most part, it's "here's a button to press once per minute" or "here's a reskin upgrade of an existing button you already had; which now has the exact same use case as before so nothing has changed".

    It'd be like if Assize got a second charge and Presence of Mind now did a burst of damage on use. Sure, it would be a change, but the latter wouldn't change the overall rotation and the former would only SLIGHTLY alter how you do burst and wouldn't alter your Glarespam at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo View Post
    Exactly. And you know what won't decrease the boredom of many healers? DPS.
    Hear hear!

    And it boggles my mind so many people are so insistent it does and refuse to acknowledge that, for many healers, not only will it NOT decrease their boredom, it will make them DISLIKE playing healers instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrysOCE View Post
    You are just proving the point? You barely need to heal and end up DPSing for the most part. So is this good healer design? Is this good content design? It's just DPS more and have a complex DPS option because, as it currently stands, all healers are, are a DPS with healing tacked on. Is that good?
    I think this is the crux of this entire thing.

    More damage buttons is a band aid. A facade. It doesn't fix the underlying problem, it only papers over it. And that only please people that like the paper veneer while alienating everyone else. For example, people complain about the 0 healer TOP clear...but how does giving healers more DPS buttons prevent a 0 healer clear? It doesn't. It doesn't address how we have too much healing power vs encounter design, either.

    It's a solution to a different problem - SOME people are bored - which generates a host of additional problems - now OTHER people are upset because they have to be a DPS Job when trying to be a Healer - and it doesn't even fix the actual underlying problem of the disconnect between encounter design and kit design, the other Job's tools that allow them to minimize or even not have healers, etc.

    Those problems need to be addressed FIRST, not AFTER, adding more damage buttons.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrysOCE View Post
    Who here has actually said "I ONLY want to heal, as a healer"?
    No one. It's a strawman and always has been.

    Quote Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo View Post
    This is silly and reductive. Anyone who plays a class can ask for whatever they want. And anyone else is free to disagree and ask for something else. You're not being robbed of your free speech just because some people on a forum disagree with you.
    I think this is important to remember, too: The forums are for everyone. For ALL feedback, positive and negative. Not JUST feedback from one perspective and no others. The Devs want to see what everyone has to say. Both the people who are upset AND the people who are happy/content AND the people who are upset but disagree with the first group on the solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDustyOne View Post
    While I do sympathize with someone that wants a simple kit, a single nuke + DoT is not a good kit. Warrior is a good example of a simple kit and that's what WHM should try to match in complexity.
    This post is long enough as it is, but this has been discussed before, and it does:

    Single target, WHM - WAR:

    Glare - Storm's Path
    Dia - Storm's Eye
    Assize - Upheaval
    Presence of Mind - Inner Beast
    Misery - Primal Rend
    Solace/Rapture - Fell Cleave
    Thin Air - Infuriate

    AOE, WHM - WAR

    Holy - Mythril Tempest
    Assize - Orogeny
    Presence of Mind - Inner Beast
    Misery - Primal Rend
    Solace/Rapture - Fell Cleave
    Thin Air - Infuriate

    WAR has a 3 charge gap closer it tries to dump in burst, and it has a 1-2 before it's Glare/Dia and a 1- before its Holy (note in PvP, these are compressed into a single button, some people do that with add-ons, and it has been floated before that the game should make that as an optional toggle for players). The only other thing is Infuriate, which WHM doesn't exactly have a parallel with, but Thin Air works in a similar way (both giving you a free use of an ability without expending the normal resources it would use, though Infuriate boosts its and its CD is reduced when using spenders). Their DPS kits are actually fairly close to 1-to-1 now. If WHM had a 1-2-3 combo instead of Glare and Dia could stack to 60 seconds, they'd be effectively identical in terms of overall rotation aside from Solace/Rapture being heals (though still gauge spenders) instead of attacks.

    On the flipside, WAR has no "spamable defensive abilities" since defensives don't work like that. Tanks don't have a tank equivalent of Cure 2, that is. So they have to fill that in with something, and that's where they get filler like the 1-2-

    Give WHM a 1-2-3 and make Dia a self-buff that stacks to 60 sec and you have basically WHM now entirely equal to WAR's kit in terms of buttons. So we're far closer to this than people ragging on healer DPS seem to realize. SPECIFICALLY for the case of WAR - less so for GNB etc - but specifically in the case of WAR, it doesn't have a lot of attacks, and some are distinctions that make no difference (Upheaval and Orogeny being separate buttons is kind of silly since the shared CD and use cases mean you will NEVER use Upheaval in AOE or Orogeny in single target, making them functionally equivalent to Assize). Most of WAR's "extra" DPS buttons are due to filler (1-2 and 1- AOE, Upheaval and Orogeny being separate is a total of 4 "excess" buttons that don't do anything), and are filling out WAR's hotbar since WAR doesn't have Cure, Cure 3, Cure 3, Medica, Medica 2, or Regen as GCDs. WAR has oGCD defensive abilities, but the total number of oGCD defensives is 9 (10 if you count Arm's Length but that doesn't work on bosses and WHM has Surecast), where WHM has 9 healing oGCDs (not counting Thin Air, Swiftcast, Surecast, or Lucid Dreaming).

    This is honestly pretty close in terms of overall abilities. WAR's extra attacks come in place of WHM's extra GCD heals...something healers, especially "the GCD healer", kind of need (and are used in high end content, just less than WAR's 1-2-)

    .

    And yes, Ty had a survey - two, in fact - which had limited participation (under 200 respondents on the first, and less than half that on the second?) most of which were from this forum with some from FFXIVDiscussion on Reddit. In simple terms, probably not a representative sample of the playerbase at large.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mecia View Post
    Couple things. Only heal healers could just keep on pressing a single button if they added more options for damage, you lose nothing.
    Only if it does the same amount of damage as performing the rotation. Otherwise you DO lose something if you're doing any content with Enrages or DPS checks. This argument is invalid unless people proposing it are suggesting the more complex DPS rotation do identical or negligibly different damage. (E.g. current SCH's Energy Drain optimization which, in a practical sense, doesn't end a fight more than a few seconds earlier when fully optimized.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sebazy View Post
    What DPS checks though? By the time they hit the later floors of savage where a healer is indeed capable of making or breaking the run with their DPS, I think it's fair to expect them to know how to play and manage a reasonable amount of damage no?
    No.

    We're not talking "do a reasonable amount of damage" - healers DO THAT NOW.

    We're talking "execute a DPSer rotation".

    You can "tap" all you want, I'm contesting hyperbole. Also, don't make me tap (3) and (4).

    Quote Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo View Post
    That's a fair point! And in my opinion, I do think there should be more disparity between classes. If half the healers given a more involved damage rotation to keep their thumbs busy, I think that would be fine. I just don't agree with a solution that gives that to everyone, because not everyone wants that.
    Gonna stop here, but...yes, this.

    4 Healers Model.

    We have 4 healers, don't make them all the same. Make each one for a different style. If that's one as it is now, one with DoTs, one with a DPS rotation, and one with a support buff suite, then hey, that's great. Changing them all from being one way (1 button spam) to all being a different way (various flavors of "DPS at home Job") doesn't fix the problem. It substitutes one problem with another.
    (1)
    Last edited by Renathras; 11-14-2023 at 06:51 PM. Reason: EDIT for length

  4. #4
    Player
    TheDustyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    Single target, WHM - WAR:

    Glare - Storm's Path
    Dia - Storm's Eye
    Assize - Upheaval
    Presence of Mind - Inner Beast
    Misery - Primal Rend
    Solace/Rapture - Fell Cleave
    Thin Air - Infuriate
    I'm gonna stop you right there and point out the problems with the comparisons.

    Glare/Storms Path comparison; Storms Path eventually builds to a Fell Cleave after only 2 combos, Glare only does damage and leads to nothing else.

    Fell Cleave is used frequently (used about 8+ times a minute) unlike Solace/Rapture. Solace/Rapture also aren't a DPS gain unless you use Misery under raid buffs.

    Dia/Storms Eye is a fair enough comparison, likewise with Assize/Upheaval/Orogeny.

    Presence of Mind/Inner Release is ludicrous to compare. Inner Release gives that major burst with free Beast Gauge options, PoM just makes you Glare faster, which again doesn't build up to anything. Also half the cooldown, you'll be using Inner Release twice as much, and with it Fell Cleave and Primal Rend more often. If it was really a one-to-one comparison, PoM would do something like let you use Solace/Rapture 3 times without spending lilies, and an additional free use of Misery.

    Misery/Primal Rend is also bad to compare because of the uses behind them; Misery is a refund mechanic first, burst button second. Primal Rend is given for free as part of its rotation while Misery is about giving back what would've been lost. If there was no damage going out you wouldn't be using Misery, while you would be using Primal Rend.

    Thin Air/Infuriate..... This is the worst comparison. Infuriate unlocks the use of an extremely powerful attack while Thin Air removes the MP of a spell. Not to mention that Beast Gauge abilities reduce the cooldown of Infuriate, making the cooldown something to track beyond once every 60s. You aren't typically using Thin Air in your rotation, as part of gauge management, or as a cooldown to actively watch, instead it's for the occasional rez or Cure.

    Holy/Tempest has the same problems as Glare/Storms Path, one builds to something, the other is just spam.

    The comparisons between the two shows just how barebones WHM is compared to its supposed contemporary in WAR. WAR frequently is building up to another attack with its primary mechanic (Beast Gauge) and has several abilities that interact with that mechanic. WHM just has Glare when Assize is on cooldown and Dia is applied.
    (13)

  5. #5
    Player
    Mecia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    Only if it does the same amount of damage as performing the rotation. Otherwise you DO lose something if you're doing any content with Enrages or DPS checks.
    Right but how many ''i want to heal not DPS'' people do content outside of DF? How many people here dont realize more damage options wouldnt hurt them because they only do DF so theyre arguing over nothing.

    And if you are for some reason going outside DF then you clearly disagree with SE regarding healers, because as you said healer DPS matters. Why should they then be condemned to only a few damage buttons.

    Are you asking for SE to change their philosophy in higher content and increase healing requirements?
    (3)

  6. #6
    Player
    Lailani_Fey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nizzi View Post
    You are not getting the healbot game you want. This is not that game. In fact, many times this expansion we've had Japanese players complaining directly to Yoshida in open Q&A's because nobody was playing healer in party finder, a phenomenon that was also very true on NA and EU. He had to ask people to "please give Healer a try." [...]
    Your point highlights a critical issue, but it overlooks several factors. Learning and executing fight mechanics as a healer is inherently complex due to the dual responsibility of keeping the team alive while also managing one's own survival. This challenge is compounded when healers must perform the same mechanics as other roles. Currently the shared responsibility for survivability across all roles dilutes the uniqueness of the healer role. While Square Enix might be hesitant to reverse this dilution, maintaining it only exacerbates the issue of role identity loss. I agree that, as content becomes familiar, healers are left with less meaningful engagement. Addressing this loss of role identity is crucial, and one approach could be designing mechanics unique to healers. This would help rebuild trust in their capabilities and differentiate their gameplay experience. Additionally, distinguishing between deaths due to lack of healer attention and those resulting from resource constraints is vital. The former, where a player dies because a healer is not attentive or occupied with other tasks, undermines team trust more severely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizzi View Post
    [...] I main a healer because I like how healing works in this game. I enjoy prog and mapping out CDs and where I handle things in a fight, and I also enjoy that I contribute via DPSing. [...]
    I appreciate your passion for the healer role as it currently stands. Let me share with you my perspective which is rooted in extensive experience with the game's older content. I've completed Coils up to E12S on Minimum Item Level. However, I've been hesitant to engage with EW Ultimates due to concerns about diminishing the challenge and engagement I value in healing. My favorite raids remain those in Coils, where every GCD matters, timing heals and managing resources are critical, and damage dealing fills the gaps between healing. These fights, unlike some newer content, lack isolated mechanics like telegraphed raidwides and TBs, offering a more chaotic and engaging experience. This chaos, where multiple things happen simultaneously, challenges healers in a way newer content often doesn't. My recent experience with downscaled Alexander raids at Lv90, especially in A8S and A12S, reaffirmed my belief that individual actions can significantly impact the outcome. This makes for highly engaging gameplay, something I would encourage Square Enix to revisit in their future designs. A careful blend of old and new mechanics could create a more fulfilling and dynamic experience for healers.
    (1)

  7. #7
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    UkcsAlias's Avatar
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    Aergrael Iyrnrael
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mecia View Post
    Are you asking for SE to change their philosophy in higher content and increase healing requirements?
    For all healers this is almost mandatory to make content more engaging, and the real issue healers face. Having just a single dps ability wouldnt be a problem if 80% of the time you were using gcds for healing.

    Now for normal content, demanding such high percentage has problems on its own (healer dead = wipe, if no revive is possible). But the current 80% is dps also isnt healthy. Spicing that up slightly does help to some degree, but doesnt break the real problem.

    I realy think that normal dungeons should be made significantly harder, and just rely on the echo to potentialy weaken to its current state (for Duty support use a difficulty setting). For weaker players it might take longer to beat it then, but as it can quickly scale down, wont cause blocked progression.

    And in the worst case: give more jobs a revive method: We have 2 duty specific buttons available that rarely are used. What if this sometimes provides an emergency revive for a healer (maybe at the cost the limit break they can revive 1 healer)? It would be undesired to be used, but when it otherwise would be a wipe, its better than nothing. And if in a trial both healers died and lb3 was up... its barely going to do anything (as the lb is lost mass revive wont happen afterward). It then only would need the game to teach the players about its existance.
    (2)

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by UkcsAlias View Post
    For all healers this is almost mandatory to make content more engaging, and the real issue healers face. Having just a single dps ability wouldnt be a problem if 80% of the time you were using gcds for healing.
    Honest question: Do you know and understand that GCD healing is binary? You either do it if you need to, and if you didn't, doing damage was the correct choice. From there, you have two possible outcomes from the use of GCD healing on a per GCD basis; you either lose whatever potency of the attack that would've replaced it because you didn't need the heal... or you needed the heal and you didn't use it, and someone died/you wiped. It's that simple. So even if GCD requirements are increased, which nobody is against, you are still going to spend the supermajority of your time using GCD attacks because it's how the role works, unless SE decides that a massive shift in difficulty is a good idea, despite multiple points in this expansion showing that the majority of players who don't raid in statics are not capable of handling it.

    Now, of course, using GCDs for comfort and overhealing in prog/reclears is a thing that exists and what you're doing until you've learned a timeline or to cover for errors; we are not robots that make optimal decisions every 2.5s and are able to optimize on that level, so there's nothing wrong with pressing the occasional Succor or Medica II when it may not be "needed". But the suggestion of increasing GCD heals to that level solves nothing except making the game that much harder and less accessible, and makes the healer the biggest failure point in any party, which is something SE clearly doesn't want.

    I'm also seriously confused at why people to say what the solution for it is at all levels, and then offer suggestions that only very high end healers are going to be able to handle it. The DPS rotation is not only boring in Savage and Ultimate you know? It's boring in every bit of content. It's boring in the MSQ, it's boring in instanced story fights. It's boring in dungeons and it's boring in every bit of "normal" mode content, far more than it is in high end content. I don't only do raids because that's all I want to, I only do raids because they're all that gives me any engagement anymore. I did all of the EW MSQ on Scholar and let me say that the Venat fight and the Zenos fight were among some of the most boring things I've ever done in any videogame ever. I couldn't wait to be done, and it actively ruined moments that are supposed to be memorable high points in the story for me.
    (9)

  9. #9
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    Mecia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UkcsAlias View Post
    if 80% of the time you were using gcds for healing.
    Okay so what about SGE and SCH being straight up worse at GCD healing. Homogenize them to match WHM/AST? Buff their GCD healing making them potentially just better than WHM/AST?

    Id love to see this 80% GCD healing world go through Bardams/Tower of Zot/Dead Ends as SGE/SCH with DRK as their tank.
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    Last edited by Mecia; 11-15-2023 at 12:07 AM.

  10. #10
    Player
    Remember_The_Name's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2022
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    97
    Character
    Caroline Frost
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by UkcsAlias View Post
    snip
    I disagree with making healers gameplay 80% GCD healing. That's just not how the game works. Especially in high end duties.

    But you brought up valid points about normal content though. Current normal content is an absolute slog as a healer.

    Considering how loaded the healer's kit gets up to Endwalker, this is clearly a problem in making them engaged. The problem is that rampant Item Level bloat makes old content look like a joke. We can start by making the Ilvl sync a bit more strict. Anyone who will say that doing so will weaken the "power fantasy" feeling from getting better gear... I want to politely remind you that gear in that game matters only in difficulties starting from Extreme and higher, because there are actual hard hitting mechanics and time restrictions per encounter (aka hard enrage)

    Gear progression would be of a greater deal for normal content if it was as following:
    • Min/entry level ilvl - Medium difficulty, need to be careful, want to upgrade your gear
    • Release patch max ilvl - Easy fight, wipes are rare, more equipped players help undergeared ones.
    • Further gear upgrades - Very easy, wipe is possible if a lot of players are new/weak/undergeared


    But what we currently have now:
    • Min/entry Ilvl - Easy, but still interesting and functions as intended by devs
    • Release patch max Ilvl - Very easy, some mechanics are skipped
    • Futher gear upgrades - LOL, is that even a fight? (f.e. Endsinger before they put 570 Ilvl sync on it be like), there's echo for old content but it is pretty much redundant (it is so rare to see one pop)

    See the problem? Gear doesn't matter this much. Instead it just crashes the difficulty of the fight through the floor to the point where mechanics are obsolete and entire phases are skipped (f.e. Nald'Thal scale mechanic, the biggest spectacle of the fight, by the way). And playing such duties as a healer is very boring.


    Quote Originally Posted by UkcsAlias View Post
    rely on the echo
    Good thing you remembered about echo. I am really surprised that the game is so allergic to wipe people, when there is a mechanic baked into it with the sole purpose of helping players who "hit the wall".

    Quote Originally Posted by UkcsAlias View Post
    give more jobs a revive method
    Just make Phoenix Down a pop-up Duty action for others if the healer kicked the bucket. Of course, it will deduct even more from healer "power fantasy" of being needed and dependent on, but at this point there are much more outstanding issues with them to care about it.

    TL,DR: Spice up the damage/mechanics a bit for normal content to make healing said content more fun and interesting.
    And expand healers DPS rotation to be more diverse and engaging to make ALL content more fun to do. (high end duties included)
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