Dark Knight Megathread

[DRKoftheAzure]

No, our opener feeling crowded or not is just a matter of whether one even has time to hit any utility or defensive actions across that period and how low a ping is required to get one's burst actions out within raid buffs.

That's not a matter of tuning. That's a matter of concentration of obligatory casts.

And you wonder why I want to turn most of Dark Knights oGCDs into GCDs, because of EXACTLY what you JUST SAID.

[Lyth]

I'm glad that people once again are acknowledging that Dark Arts spam in Stormblood was terrible. The community as a whole fought to get rid of it. It was hands down the most poorly designed iteration of DRK, put together by someone who had no understanding about why the Heavensward design worked.

Jobs which involve resource management have to be designed from the ground up around resource generation and cost. If the resource generation is too high relative to the costs, or the costs are too high relative to the resource generation, it doesn't feel good. This is why both Stormblood and Shadowbringers felt 'off' for different reasons. The biggest issue at the moment is that the container size is wrong. 3000 MP increments in a 10000 MP container? Why? Does it not make sense to go with an integer number of multiples, like 1000 MP/2000 MP/2500 MP/5000 MP? I feel like none of these design decisions would have occurred if we were using two unique job gauges, instead of relying on MP.

I don't think that increasing MP costs on Edge/Flood is the solution. The next multiple up is 5000 MP. Could you imagine only being able to store 2 Edges at a time (3 if you include Dark Arts)? That doesn't sound very fun. If anything, it probably makes more sense to go down to 2500 MP or even 2000 MP, and then adjust the rate of MP generation accordingly such that you don't cap too quickly. More storage makes for more interesting burst possibilities under special conditions (i.e. tincture/fight-specific mechanics). Remember, you can't double weave Edge with itself, so extra capacity will usually get pushed outside of burst. And if you really want to reduce the number of double weaves in general, remember that a 1.5s GCD during burst naturally removes that consideration.

On the subject of DPS queues, on a populated DC they're not really noticeable. RPR feels like it has a bit more in common with GNB than it does DRK, though.

[DRKoftheAzure]

I'm glad that people once again are acknowledging that Dark Arts spam in Stormblood was terrible. The community as a whole fought to get rid of it. It was hands down the most poorly designed iteration of DRK, put together by someone who had no understanding about why the Heavensward design worked.

That's how I felt about Dark Knight going into Shadowbringers.

Jobs which involve resource management have to be designed from the ground up around resource generation and cost. If the resource generation is too high relative to the costs, or the costs are too high relative to the resource generation, it doesn't feel good. This is why both Stormblood and Shadowbringers felt 'off' for different reasons. The biggest issue at the moment is that the container size is wrong. 3000 MP increments in a 10000 MP container? Why? Does it not make sense to go with an integer number of multiples, like 1000 MP/2000 MP/2500 MP/5000 MP? I feel like none of these design decisions would have occurred if we were using two unique job gauges, instead of relying on MP.

Guzzling MP like a Black Mage is funny though, just wish MP restoration did feel bad though...

I don't think that increasing MP costs on Edge/Flood is the solution. The next multiple up is 5000 MP. Could you imagine only being able to store 2 Edges at a time (3 if you include Dark Arts)? That doesn't sound very fun. If anything, it probably makes more sense to go down to 2500 MP or even 2000 MP, and then adjust the rate of MP generation accordingly such that you don't cap too quickly. More storage makes for more interesting burst possibilities under special conditions (i.e. tincture/fight-specific mechanics). Remember, you can't double weave Edge with itself, so extra capacity will usually get pushed outside of burst. And if you really want to reduce the number of double weaves in general, remember that a 1.5s GCD during burst naturally removes that consideration.

Yeah, that is a good point, about double weaving, but again, MP guzzler like Black Mage would better fit Dark Knight, since it is a magic knight of some kind, and would be better suited to that type of playstyle, at least for burst.

On the subject of DPS queues, on a populated DC they're not really noticeable. RPR feels like it has a bit more in common with GNB than it does DRK, though.

I play on Crystal Data center. But I also really like how Reaper was handled for the most part, though there are issues that I have with it. Though I wouldn't go as far saying Reaper has more in common with Gunbreaker. As for Gunbreaker, Continuation skills for Double Down, Sonic Break, Fated Circle, and main combos, and I would probably be more enjoyable to play than it already is, just wish the potency of the current Continuation skills were 100 potency more.

[Shurrikhan]

3000 MP increments in a 10000 MP container? Why? Does it not make sense to go with an integer number of multiples, like 1000 MP/2000 MP/2500 MP/5000 MP? I feel like none of these design decisions would have occurred if we were using two unique job gauges, instead of relying on MP.

Because you generate MP both per-GCD and per-tick, though, it's not as if it matters. You used up 25% of your MP instead of 30% of your MP. Okay, but a fraction of a second later, you may have 23% MP left to generate instead of 28%. It's going to be a little messy regardless.

...At which point it just comes down to...

• the intended frequency of those skills while ensuring that design can still keep things like Stalwart Soul's and Delirium-spenders' MP generation in sync,
• the the nearness to 100% MP required to put all possible spenders into raid buffs, and
• the portion of offensive spenders cast only during raidbuffs.

Presently, we hold 3 charges and a third (remainder), so that we really only need 90% MP to unload a full burst, reducing perceived threat of overcapping while prepping burst, and from 100% MP we exit that burst with 800 or 1000 MP left depending on tick timing, ranging between allowing for a lost/wasted an active and tick MP gen each and being able to outright start from 9000 MP (in turn allowing us to pre-pop BW even without also using a barely-prepull TBN, in case the latter wouldn't pop).

Make that an integer with zero margin, and you've merely gone from one smooth number with a bit of helpful margin to another smooth number without any helpful margin.

And by swapping to the likes of 2500 or 2000, the spenders would no longer be fit to the multiples present from/due to our combos (both 2 and 3), since we have a two-step AoE combo but a three-step ST combo (hence the 600 MP gen per builder), which would likewise be messy in that you'd then be dealing with more ugly MP/gcd values. There's going to be a little OCD-bait regardless, but having three-and-a-third charges seems about the least of those.

Finally, do we even want to those "more interesting burst possibilities under special conditions", when those casts are just syphoned away from having any spenders or otherwise interesting actions outside of minute-marked bursts? And as you just noted, holding 4 or 5 charges of Edges then strains our bursts even further. RIP any ability to casts defensives during the 2-minutes.

__________________


Tl;dr: DRK's spenders being 30% of their MP --instead of a specific 1/3rd or 1/4th, etc.-- seems a non-issue. Changing it to an integer denominator would probably hurt more than it helps, and this all seems irrelevant unless we specifically want to increase DRK's apm (especially, over its lulls) anyways. Similarly, decreasing the cost and MP gen both to allow for even more charges of Edge to be banked for 2-minute bursts would likewise probably do more harm than good.

[Shurrikhan]

And you wonder why I want to turn most of Dark Knights oGCDs into GCDs, because of EXACTLY what you JUST SAID.

Again, as I just said: That does not require turning oGCDs into GCDs. It solely requires moving when those oGCDs can be cast. That's it.

oGCDs in themselves are not a problem. Being obliged to unload 16 offensive oGCDs within 8 GCDs, leaving zero defensive/utility weave space without an early TBN and prepop BW to make room, is the only problem.

We normally want at least 2 free spaces within our 2-minute bursts so we can still function as a tank despite those bursts. That requires only attaching an MP cost to Shadowbringer, reducing the number of oGCDs within the 2-minute burst by 2, and the compensation due for that change (either increasing MP generation by roughly 3k mp/min to retain the same apm or increasing Shadowbringer's ST potency by Edge's and AoE potency by Flood's and letting that reduce DRK apm by 1).

I'd be find with periods of occasional shorter GCDs as we used to have under Blood Weapon (but, ideally, intensified), but that does not have to come at cost to the majority of our offensive oGCD casts, nor should that be --as you've suggested thus far-- a permanent 15-25% speed boost.

[Lyth]

I don't buy that explanation. Do you notice how PLD has all of its MP costs set at either 1000 or 2000 MP, both of which divide 10000 MP quite neatly? Both jobs have built in 200 MP ticks. No, they applied a base MP of 10000 MP to all jobs, and then set the MP cost based off of how frequently they wanted you to generate the moves without consideration of whether this made sense for the gauge capacity. They could have made this work for DRK as well if they had actually bothered to. What matters is the rate of MP generation, which is different for both jobs anyways. PLD generates and spends MP in 1000 MP amounts, DRK generates in 600 MP amounts and spends in 3000 MP amounts.

Adding additional gauge capacity only improves your burst to a point. If the gauge is large enough, you stop being able to fit additional uses into the burst window. Where this becomes interesting is when you start dealing with different burst window sizes. For example, RPR has the gauge capacity for a Triple Enshroud. There's usually not much benefit in doing so, because you generally don't have a big enough window to fit all three outside of special cases involving tinctures. There are clear exceptions, however, like Everburn in P8S. These optimization questions are what make resource management interesting.

I understand that you're primarily here for the 'fun of the argument' and 'theorycrafting', but I think most people are a lot more practical and just want their issues fixed in time for the coming expansion. They don't want to sit around for another two years for another shot at changes. The resource system on DRK has problems. It has for years. There's no point in defending it.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't buy that explanation. Do you notice how PLD has all of its MP costs set at either 1000 or 2000 MP, both of which divide 10000 MP quite neatly? Both jobs have built in 200 MP ticks.

And do you purposely avoid overcapping on PLD, or use it only when completely separate bottlenecks (Requiescat and Divine Might) allow? If MP on PLD is not used in the same manner as MP on DRK, you're comparing apples to granite here.

Every job has 200 MP ticks. That hasn't forced them all to use MP, let alone spend it specifically through integer-denominator costs.

They could have made this work for DRK as well if they had actually bothered to. What matters is the rate of MP generation, which is different for both jobs anyways. PLD generates and spends MP in 1000 MP amounts

PLD rotationally spends 4000 MP at a time. There is no point in purposely breaking your Confiteor combo, making any commitment to spend even 1k on Confiteor essentially a commitment to spend 4k on the Confiteor combo.

Unless forced away from the boss for multiple GCDs for which you haven't prepped Req, you do not spend MP on Holy Shock, the only case by which PLD would spend only 1000 MP at a time. Clemency costs 2000, but is a dps loss and is therefore used only in emergencies.

And it spends that MP only once per minute. You could as easily remove MP from PLD, simply placing 3 shared charges on Holy Shock and Clemency with a recast of 15s, and PLD would functionally identically.

Adding additional gauge capacity only improves your burst to a point. If the gauge is large enough, you stop being able to fit additional uses into the burst window.

Yes, but your reducing Edge's cost to 2500 or 2000 MP and reducing DRK's MP gen accordingly would then both oblige prepopped BW and Delirium with a pre-TBN and take up the gaps it saves, forcing the most finnicky 2-minute bursts possible. We're not dealing with theoretical asymptotes here; your suggestions literally have that space, but in a way that would cause a noticeably decrease in QoL.

And all for what? To clutter the 2-minute bursts further? I don't get why that would be appealing.

I don't understand the obsession with having an integer denominator. It makes no difference except to reduce margin, which tends to reduce QoL.

IWhat you're doing is like insisting that a weaponskill-affecting buff must have duration that precisely matches a multiple of one's GCDs (instead of falling just a bit too short of one such multiple to competitively stack SkS enough for another). They're the same power, but the latter has a bit of tolerance baked in for QoL. That seems the objectively better to me, especially when considering how (poorly) this game handles double-weaves under higher latency.

I understand that you're primarily here for the 'fun of the argument' and 'theorycrafting', but I think most people are a lot more practical and just want their issues fixed in time for the coming expansion.

???

How is "the denominator of my job's spenders as a portion of maximum MP isn't a perfect integer" one of DRK's vital issues that'd need fixing in time for the coming expansion?

We aren't suffering for having too small a portion of our potency that can be spent within the 2-minute burst, let alone a portion of casts. Quite the opposite, if anything. We just have a potency issue across the board --now that everyone but DRK has seen so many potency buffs in part due to trying to correct for DRK's lead in buff exploitation-- and we have the most densely filled openers of any tank (16 oGCDs, up from GNB's 10, WAR's 7, or PLD's 6).

We need less cluttering our opener, not more, regardless of whether a value like 3000 triggers some obsession where 2500 somehow would not.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Again, as I just said: That does not require turning oGCDs into GCDs. It solely requires moving when those oGCDs can be cast. That's it.

oGCDs in themselves are not a problem. Being obliged to unload 16 offensive oGCDs within 8 GCDs, leaving zero defensive/utility weave space without an early TBN and prepop BW to make room, is the only problem.

We normally want at least 2 free spaces within our 2-minute bursts so we can still function as a tank despite those bursts. That requires only attaching an MP cost to Shadowbringer, reducing the number of oGCDs within the 2-minute burst by 2, and the compensation due for that change (either increasing MP generation by roughly 3k mp/min to retain the same apm or increasing Shadowbringer's ST potency by Edge's and AoE potency by Flood's and letting that reduce DRK apm by 1).

Fights that force kitchen sinking defensives only to force a tank swap anyway, ESPECIALLY during burst windows. How many more reasons do I need to give for Dark Knight needs a good chunk of their oGCDs into GCDs, before you're even satisfied...? Because every time there is discussion between you and me, you make VERY hard for me to side with your reasonings.

I'd be find with periods of occasional shorter GCDs as we used to have under Blood Weapon (but, ideally, intensified), but that does not have to come at cost to the majority of our offensive oGCD casts, nor should that be --as you've suggested thus far-- a permanent 15-25% speed boost.

Only on technicality would it be permanent, it's would still be a timer based maintenance buff... you also forgot 300 potency increase, AND the doubling and tripling potency, which yes does stack with the 300 potency increase... And I'm beginning to think you just hate tanks doing big damage in 1 hit like it was Black Mage or pre-nerfed Samurai...

[Oizen]

Fights that force kitchen sinking defensives only to force a tank swap anyway, ESPECIALLY during burst windows. How many more reasons do I need to give for Dark Knight needs a good chunk of their oGCDs into GCDs, before you're even satisfied...? Because every time there is discussion between you and me, you make VERY hard for me to side with your reasonings.

The reason to not do make DRK a gcd job is because its never been one and its focus on ogcds is one of the few surviving bits of its job flavor left.
Its mean to be high apm and have a focus on weaving both offensively and defensively, and its honestly pretty rewarding to pull off successfully. DRK is deceptively flexible with mitigations, and very good at just not taking damage. But its not as straight forward as pressing short mit + rampart. I think its completely fine as is.

You have mitigation tools that last long enough that you can pre-mit before a burst window starts and not think about it. If you absolutely NEED to triple weave or let something drift, just drop a plunge? Your damage will survive. As long as you're landing your big buttons in the burst window, and keeping Living Shadow out on CD, no one is going to care if you want to extra mit and take a slight damage loss.

I'd really rather not see more things be stripped off DRK for the sake of appealing to players who play other tank jobs, if you want a GCD centric tank, again we have WAR and we have PLD.
Its okay to not like a job, but expecting a distinguished job to completely rework itself just to appeal to you is pretty unrealistic.

[DRKoftheAzure]

The reason to not do make DRK a gcd job is because its never been one and its focus on ogcds is one of the few surviving bits of its job flavor left.
Its mean to be high apm and have a focus on weaving both offensively and defensively, and its honestly pretty rewarding to pull off successfully. DRK is deceptively flexible with mitigations, and very good at just not taking damage. But its not as straight forward as pressing short mit + rampart. I think its completely fine as is.

Heavensward Dark Knight and maybe Stormblood Dark Knight if we count enmity combos for a little extra credit.

I'd really rather not see more things be stripped off DRK for the sake of appealing to players who play other tank jobs, if you want a GCD centric tank, again we have WAR and we have PLD.

Again, all we need to do is look at Heavensward, which for ALL tanks, they were ALL GCD centric, Dark Knight had only had Low Blow which was VERY luck based with parry procs, Reprisal which was a parry proc, Plunge, Dark Passenger,Carve and Spit, and Salted Earth as oGCDs, Dark Arts enhanced certain GCD effects and/or potencies, maybe boosted the potency of Dark Passenger, Paladin had Circle of Scorn, Spirits within, and Shield Swipe which was a Block proc, Warrior had their own oGCD stun that did damage, and all tanks had Access to Warrior's Mercy Stroke. Dark Knight is only considered a oGCD centric job because of either Dark Arts spam, or Low Blow spam, or Edge/Flood spam, and Low Blow spam was balanced by the fact that it was RNG based, Dark Arts and Edge/Flood spam is boring, since you're not engaging with the GCD if the latter, or did not impact the GCD enough if the former, and 1-2-3 spam was always boring, just ask anyone who has played Paladin since ARR or even just picked up the game for the first time lately.

Its okay to not like a job, but expecting a distinguished job to completely rework itself just to appeal to you is pretty unrealistic.

That's devs job to rework it, I'm just giving feedback. And if suggestions for a Dark Knight Rework is unrealistic, then healers asking for more DPS buttons of some kind is also unrealistic, same with melee asking to bring back positionals, Astrologian cards being more than just damage up, Samurais aking for Hissatsu: Kaiten to come back, Dancer and Red Mage RNG to be more forgiving with procs, just go play any other job at that point and don't complain about it sucks to play. Because you might as well be saying all of that, and that is even more unrealistic, than me asking for Dark Knight rework to be good for once.